When you have one of those oh-so-tempting <550 PA/162 batters, do you generally rest them a lot, or bat them lower in the order to conserve PAs?  I'll usually start them at the bottom of the order then move them up as the season moves on, figuring a stud batting 7th-8th every game is better than a stud batting 3rd but having to rest every few games.  Thoughts?

Posted by pinotfan on 1/31/2012 10:10:00 PM (view original):
When you have one of those oh-so-tempting <550 PA/162 batters, do you generally rest them a lot, or bat them lower in the order to conserve PAs?  I'll usually start them at the bottom of the order then move them up as the season moves on, figuring a stud batting 7th-8th every game is better than a stud batting 3rd but having to rest every few games.  Thoughts?

I use '94 Jack Doyle (565PA) as a #3 hitter often.  I say use 'em where they fit best in the line-up and rest 'em often.

Both. bat them lower and rest them. If he's my best hitter i'll bat him 5th or so. if he has good glove I'll bat him 8th or 9th to keep his glove in the field.
also depends on how bad his backup is, how many other hitters have low PA, Lefty/Righty matchup, etc.

I'm surprised by Zubinsum's answer. He's always seemed more like a 'its who you have not where you hit them' guy.

My opinion is that batting order matters very much. You can go to the 'sim matchup' and play a team against itself, tweaking the batting order for one team, and often come up with one being clearly the better team.
So if we assume that batting order is very significant, then this question has a problem coming from two sides. If I bat a player in a different spot than I think his numbers optimally used in, how many runs do I lose?  ...or if I bat him optimally, I'll have to rest him occasionally, then how many runs do I lose with some goofy replacement and other players having to shift? Thats what I ask. I don't have some super-smart calculation. I just eyeball it and try to play it out in my head. If I have a guy with 490PAs that would be an ideal 5 hitter, but someone with 560PAs is almost as good, I'll want to go ahead and bat the 490PA guy somewhere else. If the 490PA guy is the only player I have with any remote amount of power, I may go ahead and hit him 5th when he's rested and just do without when he isn't.

I've considered this scenario alot cause in progs I'll draft for several seasons out and will inevitably have players in that situation.  Right now I have Corey Hart (566pa)  in a prog, it's 2007. As of 42 games  he's at: .316ba, .350obp, .675slg and 10HRs(!)  In this case I'm resting him against weaker and non-division teams.  Also Corey struggles a bit on the road: .245avg, 2HRs, so I'll look to rest him there.  I try to keep players fatigue free so I'll use close to all of his alotted pa's by the end of the season..  He bats 4th or 5th depending on who else I'm playing/resting.  That's just this particular set of circumstances though...I think you have to consider the whole picture as it applies to your team.

I rarely go under 525 PA/162 without drafting a backup of 100 PA/162 that has similar numbers (maybe not QUITE as good) so I can bat them interchangably in the same spot.  My question was thinking of the Open League model, where you have limited resources and the option is batting the player low and gradually moving him up the order, or batting him at his 'deserved' position and tanking his spot with with a scrub every few games.

Posted by boogerlips on 2/1/2012 8:42:00 PM (view original):
I'm surprised by Zubinsum's answer. He's always seemed more like a 'its who you have not where you hit them' guy.

I think that efficient line-ups generate 5-10% more runs than "average" line-ups.   That is roughly equal to $3-4 million in salary.

What do you base that on zub?  I didn't think it was anywhere near 10%, more like 2-4%.   I thought the research for optimal lineups says they yield something 25  more runs a year.   The articles I have read all dealt with RL MLB teams though.

This is where I got the 25 runs a year from....

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/optimizing-yesterdays-lineups/

That article is comparing an "optimal" (based on runs created) lineup to the actual lineup (which a manager has been trying to optimize). Zubinsum (I'd assume) is comparing optimal to worst.

Zub said "average"

Generally, I draft players with specific lineup spots in mind, and in an OL, most of the players I draft are leadoff type players, and I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference where I batmost of them. I tend to insert the AAA sub in the original players spot, and see how he does.  But if I draft a '18 Ruth, for example, when he is in there, he needs to be where he can do the most good.

TJ:
I am referring to RC data in OLs.  If you add the individual RC on a team and compare it to the runs scored by that team, you will find the average is about 1, perhaps slightly less.  The most efficient teams are anywhere from 105% to 110%.  The worst teams are down around 90%.

Thinking about it criticaly, that might not be completely applicable to the discussion, as those number reflect over player selection as well as line-up selection.

I agree with Pfattkat. When I draft, I definitely consider where each hitter is going to bat in the order.  In doing so, you can draft PAs accordingly.  I'm often surprised to see someone like Miguel Dilone batting leadoff. With his 550 PAs and .340 AVG I see him as the perfect 6th hitter in an open league.  The fact that he is a decent basestealer puts him in a position to get into scoring position for your 7th/8th hitters.  Plus with his AVG, he'll knock in runs hitting 6th.

So with that said, no, I would not bat a guy with 550 PAs much higher than 5th in my lineup.  He would tire too quickly and as boogerlips said, you'd be stuck putting a goofy backup player in your lineup all too often.  Typically, you're going to want around 700+ PA for your leadoff guy and then 680+ for your second hitter etc.

I'm talking primarily open leagues here though.  I think some of this discussion depends on the league and how your team is performing.  No clear cut rule, but this is a start.  Another guy I like, Otis Nixon has "leadoff" type numbers with his OBP and SBs, but only about 490 PAs. Perfect #8 hitter in an open league, but if he is fresh enough and someone else needs a rest, you can lead him off as you get past the all star break on ocassion.