Recruiting Oddity? Topic

darnoc29099
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Here are the messages:
*Cycle 1, phone call:
Like a pole-vaulter, I'm treating you straight up Coach - you're a backup option for me. Keep in touch and you never know...

*48 hours later, I decided to pull him down.  Sent him 10 STs and a schollie. Changed my mind, cancelled the STs, but left the schollie.  This was his response:
"Coach, to be quite honest, there is just no way I see myself at College of NJ next season. Although I'm not saying no, I'm just saying it's very unlikely."

I put forth 0 recruiting effort, and the next cycle here's what he said (in response to the schollie):
"Coach, let's face facts - I think we both know that there's not much in common here. The level of play I'll see at College of NJ is probably not what I'm looking for. I'll keep your offer in mind though in case my other options don't pan out."

Again, I put forth 0 recruiting effort, and here's what he said on the next cycle:
"Coach, honestly, the offer is great, but I don't know enough about you or the program to be able to say yes at this point."  [To me, this meant he could be recruited w/ HVs and no longer needed to be pulled down]

4 cycles later (b/c I went to bed), I sent him a phone call and HV and these were his 3 responses (1 each to HV, call, and schollie):
1) Good to hear from you coach! I've always had great respect for your school. I'm not sure how I would fit in there, but we can definitely talk more about it.
2) I think I could have a bright future at College of NJ and your visit showed me that you were interested in me. I still have a lot to consider, but I like the idea of playing for you. Thanks for your visit, Coach.
3) Coach, I just can't say yes right now...I'm still supposed to take a campus visit of another school. I should know more after that.

Even at this point, he was still on my D2 list (and was the entire time, I checked every cycle), but now he was considering me (for the first time). I didn't do anything else, and he signed one cycle later.

10/23/2012 3:42 PM
darnoc29099
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When recruiting a player from a division above within 70 miles, maybe it's a tiered system?  Tier 1 could be players within 70 miles that are not readily recuitable, and Tier 2 could be players within 70 miles that are recruitable.  Players in tier 1 that give you the backup message "drop" to tier 2, become readily recruitable, and therefore never show up on your D3 list.  It's just a thought, as I haven't been around long enough to know all of the ins and outs of recruiting.  
10/23/2012 3:47 PM
coach_billyg
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Posted by bistiza on 10/23/2012 3:36:00 PM (view original):
On the 70 miles thing, does it only work for select players within 70 miles who are up a division from you, or is it every player within 70 miles will automatically be more open to your efforts?
it can go either way. 
10/23/2012 3:54 PM
coach_billyg
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Posted by darnoc29099 on 10/23/2012 3:42:00 PM (view original):

Here are the messages:
*Cycle 1, phone call:
Like a pole-vaulter, I'm treating you straight up Coach - you're a backup option for me. Keep in touch and you never know...

*48 hours later, I decided to pull him down.  Sent him 10 STs and a schollie. Changed my mind, cancelled the STs, but left the schollie.  This was his response:
"Coach, to be quite honest, there is just no way I see myself at College of NJ next season. Although I'm not saying no, I'm just saying it's very unlikely."

I put forth 0 recruiting effort, and the next cycle here's what he said (in response to the schollie):
"Coach, let's face facts - I think we both know that there's not much in common here. The level of play I'll see at College of NJ is probably not what I'm looking for. I'll keep your offer in mind though in case my other options don't pan out."

Again, I put forth 0 recruiting effort, and here's what he said on the next cycle:
"Coach, honestly, the offer is great, but I don't know enough about you or the program to be able to say yes at this point."  [To me, this meant he could be recruited w/ HVs and no longer needed to be pulled down]

4 cycles later (b/c I went to bed), I sent him a phone call and HV and these were his 3 responses (1 each to HV, call, and schollie):
1) Good to hear from you coach! I've always had great respect for your school. I'm not sure how I would fit in there, but we can definitely talk more about it.
2) I think I could have a bright future at College of NJ and your visit showed me that you were interested in me. I still have a lot to consider, but I like the idea of playing for you. Thanks for your visit, Coach.
3) Coach, I just can't say yes right now...I'm still supposed to take a campus visit of another school. I should know more after that.

Even at this point, he was still on my D2 list (and was the entire time, I checked every cycle), but now he was considering me (for the first time). I didn't do anything else, and he signed one cycle later.

this makes 100% sense, and all the parts you didn't say, i directly inferred, because its the only possibility given your initial info.

anyone have any further questions? its one of the more confusing parts of recruiting, and im happy to keep at it till everybody is on the same page.

the only thing that is really variable here is that the player COULD have moved down to your d3 list at some point. just depends where they are - he started as a backup, and didnt "drop" (become immediately recruitable via hv/cv) right way, so it makes sense he never made it far enough to show in d3. had he been open to your efforts right away, or had he "dropped" really early, you probably would have seen him drop to d3 before recruiting ended. well actually, you signed him during signings, so you never know - he may have showed d3 to you had you waiting until the end of recruiting.
10/23/2012 3:57 PM
coach_billyg
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Posted by darnoc29099 on 10/23/2012 3:47:00 PM (view original):
When recruiting a player from a division above within 70 miles, maybe it's a tiered system?  Tier 1 could be players within 70 miles that are not readily recuitable, and Tier 2 could be players within 70 miles that are recruitable.  Players in tier 1 that give you the backup message "drop" to tier 2, become readily recruitable, and therefore never show up on your D3 list.  It's just a thought, as I haven't been around long enough to know all of the ins and outs of recruiting.  
you can think of it like this without any harm. its effectively equivalently to how it really works.
10/23/2012 3:58 PM
jdno
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well it doesn't make 100% sense to me, as the story as laid out is inconsistent with what I've seen before in some fashion.

1. He wasn't immediately recruitable as a D2 kid within 70 miles b/c he said he was a backup right from the start.
2. He didn't pull the kid down b/c he canceled the evals.
3. The kid didn't drop down to his D3 level b/c he remained on the D2 screen at all times
4. Yet, just 2 HVs and some calls and a scholly and the kid signed and is still on the D2 screen. 

If he hadn't given the backup message immediately, then I'd understand the circumstance 100% given the <70 miles advantage we know exists.

So apparently there is a new case (or new to me?) where a kid can give you a backup message at first and then later drop to you but still remain on the D2 list simply b/c he's within 70 miles?  Has this always been the case?  How would you know that a kid has dropped to you and is available to be recruited with HV/CVs if he doesn't circle back to you?  Is the onus on the coach to send some calls and use trial and error on kids within 70 miles who initially said you're a backup but now may have dropped down to you but still not appear on your D3 list?  Very weird case here imo.


10/23/2012 5:26 PM
darnoc29099
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Posted by jdno on 10/23/2012 5:26:00 PM (view original):
well it doesn't make 100% sense to me, as the story as laid out is inconsistent with what I've seen before in some fashion.

1. He wasn't immediately recruitable as a D2 kid within 70 miles b/c he said he was a backup right from the start.
2. He didn't pull the kid down b/c he canceled the evals.
3. The kid didn't drop down to his D3 level b/c he remained on the D2 screen at all times
4. Yet, just 2 HVs and some calls and a scholly and the kid signed and is still on the D2 screen. 

If he hadn't given the backup message immediately, then I'd understand the circumstance 100% given the <70 miles advantage we know exists.

So apparently there is a new case (or new to me?) where a kid can give you a backup message at first and then later drop to you but still remain on the D2 list simply b/c he's within 70 miles?  Has this always been the case?  How would you know that a kid has dropped to you and is available to be recruited with HV/CVs if he doesn't circle back to you?  Is the onus on the coach to send some calls and use trial and error on kids within 70 miles who initially said you're a backup but now may have dropped down to you but still not appear on your D3 list?  Very weird case here imo.


How about this...when the player gave me the message informing me he was immediately recruitable and didn't have to be pulled down, he was contacting me because there was a scholarship offer on the table.  I'm guessing it's plausible that if I didn't have the offer out there, he could have contacted me that cycle anyway letting me know he dropped.  The problem is, we'll never know if he would have contacted me on his own because the offer was on the table, and he responded directly to the schollie.  
10/23/2012 7:21 PM
disasteruss
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To elaborate on bistiza's question:
If you receive the backup message from a player within 70 miles, can you automatically assume he will be open to your recruiting efforts? Or is it different for different players? If it is the latter (which is what I would assume), how do I know the difference? Simply attempting an HV and seeing if he accepts it?

10/23/2012 8:14 PM
gillispie
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Posted by darnoc29099 on 10/23/2012 7:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jdno on 10/23/2012 5:26:00 PM (view original):
well it doesn't make 100% sense to me, as the story as laid out is inconsistent with what I've seen before in some fashion.

1. He wasn't immediately recruitable as a D2 kid within 70 miles b/c he said he was a backup right from the start.
2. He didn't pull the kid down b/c he canceled the evals.
3. The kid didn't drop down to his D3 level b/c he remained on the D2 screen at all times
4. Yet, just 2 HVs and some calls and a scholly and the kid signed and is still on the D2 screen. 

If he hadn't given the backup message immediately, then I'd understand the circumstance 100% given the <70 miles advantage we know exists.

So apparently there is a new case (or new to me?) where a kid can give you a backup message at first and then later drop to you but still remain on the D2 list simply b/c he's within 70 miles?  Has this always been the case?  How would you know that a kid has dropped to you and is available to be recruited with HV/CVs if he doesn't circle back to you?  Is the onus on the coach to send some calls and use trial and error on kids within 70 miles who initially said you're a backup but now may have dropped down to you but still not appear on your D3 list?  Very weird case here imo.


How about this...when the player gave me the message informing me he was immediately recruitable and didn't have to be pulled down, he was contacting me because there was a scholarship offer on the table.  I'm guessing it's plausible that if I didn't have the offer out there, he could have contacted me that cycle anyway letting me know he dropped.  The problem is, we'll never know if he would have contacted me on his own because the offer was on the table, and he responded directly to the schollie.  
i can clear this up too. if you had a call out to him ONLY, then he would have informed you he was available to be recruited, i.e., that he dropped. this would occur same time as you got the second scholarship message - and the player still would have appeared a division above. again, this is a 70 mile and under deal only
10/23/2012 9:31 PM
gillispie
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Posted by disasteruss on 10/23/2012 8:14:00 PM (view original):
To elaborate on bistiza's question:
If you receive the backup message from a player within 70 miles, can you automatically assume he will be open to your recruiting efforts? Or is it different for different players? If it is the latter (which is what I would assume), how do I know the difference? Simply attempting an HV and seeing if he accepts it?

you guys are overthinking this. let me concisely summarize the difference between a 70 mile and say 150 mile player a division up:
1) a player within 70 miles is more likely to be willing to consider you, because of the distance advantage. so, maybe the 170SG will talk to you in general, but not 169. well, the 150SG 50 miles away might be willing to talk to you (probably as a backup). thats a d2 reference but you get the idea
2) a player within 70 miles in the screen above, when you send a call, works EXACTLY like all other players. the rule still holds - this is an absolute, WITH NO EXCEPTIONS - if you send a phone call, and he says screw off, you can never recruit him. if he says, im treating you liek a pole vaulter, talk to me later type thing, hes a backup. but UNLIKE other players a division up, he might say hey coach, hows it going? or something else indicating he is immediately recruitable. this is the same set of phone call responses you'd get from a player in your division who is immediately recruitable.
3) when a player within 70 miles drops to you (becomes immediately recruitable), he may still show in the division above. its your distance advantage that is getting him to be open to you now, so from an objective standpoint, he still appears a division higher. BUT THIS HAS NO BEARING WHATSOEVER ON HIS RECRUITABILITY. trust the phone calls and his follow up

thats it. everything else is the same. if the guy says hey, im a backup, then he is a backup and you have to pull him down or wait for him to drop naturally. when he drops naturally, EVEN THOUGH he may still show a division up, he is immediately recruitable and will send you a message indicating that is the situation. really, its not that different than other players. more guys in that distance may be willing to talk to you, and on equal footing (say the 179 SG at 50 miles vs the 180SG at 200), they will generally drop earlier - meaning you can use HVs/CVs - but for a while (a good while), they will still appear a division up - just like a player you have pulled down.

hopefully that clears it up. there is nothing really strange going on here. the old send a phone call and wait for a response trick is exactly the same. you still have to pull down a guy who says hes a backup, or wait. and if his initial response is you can recruit me now, then believe it. IN SHORT - send the phone call, and based on the response, you can treat him exactly as you would any other player, at any distance, who would give you that response.

10/23/2012 9:48 PM (edited)
gillispie
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Posted by disasteruss on 10/23/2012 8:14:00 PM (view original):
To elaborate on bistiza's question:
If you receive the backup message from a player within 70 miles, can you automatically assume he will be open to your recruiting efforts? Or is it different for different players? If it is the latter (which is what I would assume), how do I know the difference? Simply attempting an HV and seeing if he accepts it?

like all players - send a phone call. if you receive a backup mesage, you have to pull him down, or you have to wait for him to drop, at which time he will notify you. the only difference is a cosmetic one - at the time of the dropdown message, he will still show a division up, but you can recruit him normally, just like a player you have pulled down.
10/23/2012 9:39 PM
gillispie
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Posted by jdno on 10/23/2012 5:26:00 PM (view original):
well it doesn't make 100% sense to me, as the story as laid out is inconsistent with what I've seen before in some fashion.

1. He wasn't immediately recruitable as a D2 kid within 70 miles b/c he said he was a backup right from the start.
2. He didn't pull the kid down b/c he canceled the evals.
3. The kid didn't drop down to his D3 level b/c he remained on the D2 screen at all times
4. Yet, just 2 HVs and some calls and a scholly and the kid signed and is still on the D2 screen. 

If he hadn't given the backup message immediately, then I'd understand the circumstance 100% given the <70 miles advantage we know exists.

So apparently there is a new case (or new to me?) where a kid can give you a backup message at first and then later drop to you but still remain on the D2 list simply b/c he's within 70 miles?  Has this always been the case?  How would you know that a kid has dropped to you and is available to be recruited with HV/CVs if he doesn't circle back to you?  Is the onus on the coach to send some calls and use trial and error on kids within 70 miles who initially said you're a backup but now may have dropped down to you but still not appear on your D3 list?  Very weird case here imo.


this is not a new case. its been around for a number of years. he DOES circle back to you, so thats how you know. no, the onus is not that crazy method. like all players- send ONE phone call, and wait for him to respond. thats it.

there are bugs today even, where a player who shows in your divisional search WILL NOT immediately take your visits - and to a phone call, will say hes a backup. the PHONE CALL METHOD IS THE ONLY 100% FOR SURE PART LEFT IN RECRUITING. IF YOU SEND A PHONE CALL, TO ANY PLAYER, IN ANY DIVISION, AT ANY DISTANCES, WITH ANY PRESTIGE, AND FOR SCHOOLS IN ANY DIVISION, THE FOLLOWING ALWAYS HOLD - AS THEY ALWAYS HAVE:
1) IF HE SAYS SCREW OFF, YOU CAN NEVER GET HIM
2) IF HE SAYS YOU ARE A BACKUP, YOU CAN PULL HIM DOWN OR WAIT AND HOPE HE DROPS. IF HE DROPS, HE WILL LET YOU KNOW WHEN IT HAPPENS. DROP MEANING HE CAN BE RECRUITED NORMALLY (HV/CV). NOT WHAT DIVISIONAL SEARCH HE SHOWS IN
3) IF HE SAYS YOU CAN RECRUIT HIM NOW, YOU CAN

i am not using caps to yell. its for emphasis. those phone call rules hold ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS. its the only absolute left in recruiting if you count the bugs that have come out. it is and always has worked that way for players within 70 miles, at least for 5 years (the phone call stuff). THAT PHONE CALL METHOD WILL NOT LEAD YOU ASTRAY, TRUST IT ABOVE ALL ELSE, ALWAYS, WITHOUT EXCEPTION
10/23/2012 9:47 PM (edited)
jdno
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I usually do just send a phone call and go from there.  But in this case the observation that the kid stayed at D2 when he dropped to the OP and later signed is what threw me off.  Guess I'm a bit rusty at the D3 recruiting nuances, or simply haven't paid attention enough.  I thought any player who dropped -- regardless of less than or greater than 70 miles -- would then  show up on your D3 list, not stay on D2 simply if he is within 70 miles.
10/23/2012 10:49 PM
gillispie1
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Posted by jdno on 10/23/2012 10:49:00 PM (view original):
I usually do just send a phone call and go from there.  But in this case the observation that the kid stayed at D2 when he dropped to the OP and later signed is what threw me off.  Guess I'm a bit rusty at the D3 recruiting nuances, or simply haven't paid attention enough.  I thought any player who dropped -- regardless of less than or greater than 70 miles -- would then  show up on your D3 list, not stay on D2 simply if he is within 70 miles.
the 70 miles is really an advantage from the players' perspective, much like when you give SVs to pull them down - thats why, like pulldowns - they stay in the division above search. i do see the confusion though! thats why i have made the effort to come back here 10 times to try to make sure everyone understood :) 

if anyone still has any lingering questions/concerns/doubts, just let me know! i dont really like playing this game, but i like talking about it, and i like helping people. so really, you are doing ME the favor. ok, not really, but still - dont hesitate! there are no stupid questions... only stupid people (haha, i like that one. but not serious, obviously. this pulldown **** has vexed coaches since the beginning of time (i consider that to be when i started playing, 5 years ago, about 5 years after the game came out). even the game admins give INCREDIBLY INACCURATE info on how it works. so if you have any more questions on 70 miles or pulldowns or dropdowns, or why the sun orbits the earth, just let me know).
10/23/2012 10:53 PM
darnoc29099
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Posted by disasteruss on 10/23/2012 8:14:00 PM (view original):
To elaborate on bistiza's question:
If you receive the backup message from a player within 70 miles, can you automatically assume he will be open to your recruiting efforts? Or is it different for different players? If it is the latter (which is what I would assume), how do I know the difference? Simply attempting an HV and seeing if he accepts it?

First, thanks gillispie for the feedback.  Much appreciated.

Second, you hit on the answer to above question in a few different posts.  But to sum it up disasteruss, some players within 70 miles give you the clear cut 'backup' message while others give you the 'Hey coach, I'd really like to learn more about I fit in your program' message.  The players giving you the former need to be pulled down, where the latter are immediately recruitable with HVs.  So as gillispie said, trust the phone calls because they'll give you the answer you are looking for.
10/23/2012 11:06 PM
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