what do you think of my first d2 recruiting class? Topic

what do you guys think of my first d2 recruiting class? what do you think i could do better?


11/9/2012 11:07 PM
Vernon Humble
SG | 6'0" | 172 lbs. | 2.3 GPA
Seward Park HS | New York, NY

Athleticism 52 Low   Perimeter 31 High
Speed 57 High   Ball Handling 40 High
Rebounding 23 Average   Passing 56 High
Defense 47 High   Stamina 76 Low
Shot Blocking 12 Low   Durability 52 High
Low-post 3 Low   FT Shooting   Average


WE: 38

11/9/2012 11:08 PM
Troy Soares
PG | 6'0" | 194 lbs. | 2.9 GPA
Samuel Gompers HS | Bronx, NY

Athleticism 60 Low   Perimeter 21 High
Speed 54 High   Ball Handling 56 High
Rebounding 10 Low   Passing 64 Low
Defense 46 High   Stamina 73 Average
Shot Blocking 1 Low   Durability 46 Average
Low-post 12 Average   FT Shooting   Low

WE:58
11/9/2012 11:09 PM
Bret McNutty
PG | 5'11" | 167 lbs. | 2.2 GPA
The Christian Academy | Brookhaven, PA


Athleticism 33 Low   Perimeter 52 High
Speed 56 High   Ball Handling 60 High
Rebounding 9 Low   Passing 56 High
Defense 30 Average   Stamina 66 High
Shot Blocking 1 Low   Durability 70 High
Low-post 14 High   FT Shooting   High


WE:45

he is ineligible.
11/9/2012 11:11 PM
W/ 3 Senior big men, I would have tried to recruit one big man just to soften that loss for next season. Also, W/ running the press, you're going to need Humble and Soares to play a lot of minutes. Right now you only have 5 guards (3 returning, 2 recruits) who are going to have to be the starters and backups for PG, SG and SF, and I think they're going to get tired and foul trouble may become an issue. It looks like Natal could be a backup SF in a pinch and I'd put him down as the 3rd just in case one of your 5 guards fouls out (more likely in a press than other systems)

That being said, Humble and Soares look like they're going to pass the 130 Ath/Spd threshold which, I think it might be Coach BillyG said was the d2 goal for guards. I also like the categories which they have high potential. 

Good luck Pats. Going to miss you in the LOU!

11/10/2012 10:55 AM
thanks artie 
11/10/2012 11:47 AM
Posted by artie40 on 11/10/2012 10:55:00 AM (view original):
W/ 3 Senior big men, I would have tried to recruit one big man just to soften that loss for next season. Also, W/ running the press, you're going to need Humble and Soares to play a lot of minutes. Right now you only have 5 guards (3 returning, 2 recruits) who are going to have to be the starters and backups for PG, SG and SF, and I think they're going to get tired and foul trouble may become an issue. It looks like Natal could be a backup SF in a pinch and I'd put him down as the 3rd just in case one of your 5 guards fouls out (more likely in a press than other systems)

That being said, Humble and Soares look like they're going to pass the 130 Ath/Spd threshold which, I think it might be Coach BillyG said was the d2 goal for guards. I also like the categories which they have high potential. 

Good luck Pats. Going to miss you in the LOU!

overall, pretty solid advice. however, it wasnt me who said there is an ath+spd goal, im actually pretty sure ive never said anything about a sum of ratings limit in my life, because i just dont think it is a functional way to think about the game (not complaining about being misquoted, god knows i say enough things on this board to have said just about everything once :) but i do disagree with that statement). i know a lot of other coaches throw out statements like that, you should have at least 100 ath+spd on your big in d3, or similar. but i just hate that way of thinking.

in the original example, 130 ath+spd, it just doesnt apply logically. a primary role guards have in d2 is being the primary scorer, particularly of the 3 point variety. if thats the case, you can have 40 ath + 80 spd + 90 per and be in a lot better shape with 120 ath/spd than an 80 ath/50 spd/90 per guy with 130 ath/spd. the role of ath and spd are less different today than before the new engine - when speed was markedly more dominant than ath for all guards, and similarly with ath over spd for all bigs (which is still true). today, outside of the press, ath/spd are a lot more evenly weighted for guards, so having some guideline on ath+spd in practice, is not that horrible. but, it just leads to thinking about things the wrong way.

the right way to think about your players is this - given your team, what roles do you need to fill? and for those roles, what do the ideal players look like? and then you go out and find them. you generally need players with 2 clear strengths, the only notable exception is a rock star defender, particularly at the 3, who can half *** some other stuff. everyone else needs 2 clear strengths, and its much better to think about what it takes to be strong in the appropriate areas, than to try to fill some ratings. a lot of guys say, i really dont want a guard under 60 passing in the d2 triangle offense. well, its better if you dont, but you really need to look at the whole package, and not set artificial goals on single ratings or combinations of ratings - its all about a players true ability to defend, or score, or rebound, and how that makes him fit with your team.

applying that sort of thinking to the team in question.. you have 9 guys returning, so none of your players really matter for this season. you have 1guard/1big in each of the classes that you will still have next year. so, to complement them, you want like, a guard, a big, and a sf, or something like that - DEFINITELY NOT 3 guards or 3 bigs (or 3 small forwards, for that matter). you should also be looking at it more than a guard/big level. if you have only scoring guards, but no real point guards, you need to make sure you get a point guard. so you basically need to look at your team and go ok, next year, these are the roles my 4 then-seniors and then-juniors will play. did i find 3 players who can get in right behind them, filling the last starting spot and the major backup spots (ideally guard 3 and big 3)? ok, in 2 years, i will have my 2 now-soph then-seniors. how do these 3 guys fit with them? do the 5 of them make an elegant starting lineup, with great natural chemistry? and when these 3 freshman are seniors, do they make provide a great base for the team, with which i can build?

now talent wise, your players look fine. but they are all guards really and its just a waste to have all those guards. it looks like one is really a sf maybe, which is good, but you still would have been better off to branch out a bit more. i would also question exactly where your 2nd guard fits in. the 3rd is a good scorer and also has good pg skills (the 2 strengths, as needed), but he lacks strong defense - which is ok. sores though, hes a good defender, but what else? so he seems to violate the have 2 strengths rule, and the reason that is the rule is, no player without 2 strengths really fits anywhere. sores is not good on offense, he shouldnt play sg. hes not a good point guard type, he shouldnt play pg. so where do you stick him? i would have signed your 1st guard to play sf, your 3rd to play pg or sg, and found a big.

however, i do want to conclude - for a first d2 class, you definitely did well. there is no doubt about that, so dont get down on your class because i wrote a long note about why its not perfect. i figured that would help you more than a long note about what you did well. so just know that you did well for a good class, very well even, but as one would expect, there is room for improvement. good luck!

11/10/2012 5:06 PM (edited)
I think the sum of ath+sp is from aejones how to win at DII and DIII thread, and I think for DII it was 140, 120 for DIII ( I could be very long about this.)  In general it is a good way to start to get good at the game and from there you can start to analyze the players better and get the guys that will have a strong combination of core attributes.
11/10/2012 5:05 PM
Posted by milwood on 11/10/2012 5:05:00 PM (view original):
I think the sum of ath+sp is from aejones how to win at DII and DIII thread, and I think for DII it was 140, 120 for DIII ( I could be very long about this.)  In general it is a good way to start to get good at the game and from there you can start to analyze the players better and get the guys that will have a strong combination of core attributes.
perspective is everything in this game. vets often give advice that works because of their situation more than its good advice, and id put this in that category. its not a BAD START, but i think minimally any coach trying to win a championship should think about it in a more sophisticated manner. 

for aejones, this kind of metric is not so bad. why? a couple reasons. i know his teams and his style fairly well. for starters, he puts a lot of emphasis on defensive ability, and he is a m2m coach. this makes ath and spd in guards as close in value as you can get. well, only when you combine that first characteristic with this second one - jonesy recruits SO MUCH talent, hes always got plenty of offense. if you are building a less well rounded team, probably because you arent the fantastic recruiter aejones is, you really need to put a higher priority on speed in your offensive guards, and derive much of your scoring from there.

so i think his situation and style of play makes that ath+spd advice more appropriate for him than most others. my biggest criticism of his teams, even his by far #1 easy championship teams, has always been the efficiency with which he uses his offensive players. its just definitely not his strength, well, he has MANY strengths (recruiting, fielding the best defense in the nation on a regular basis, etc) - but proper mixing of offensive talent is not one of them. and besides, without having read that post to see the exact context - im sure he is suggesting it as a guideline. it doesnt mean you dont need to look deeper, its just a good litmus test. and that is fine, litmus tests are good - but its important that the user knows its simply a litmus test. the reality is the relative value of ath and spd are dramatically different for different roles and different situations, and that is why an ath+spd metric can never be anything more than a guideline. im really not saying people should totally throw that way of thinking out, just advising caution and making sure people realize that is nowhere close to telling the whole story.
11/10/2012 5:17 PM (edited)
Sorry to misquote. It was aejones. I just remembered that was from a coach whose opinion i respected.
11/10/2012 8:02 PM
To be honest, i've always found 120 to be a hard d3 measure to match. It has helped me to remember to ensure to look at those categories when I recruit. I hadn't thought about looking for 2 things before. What categories would you say there are for guards? Speed, BH, Ath, Def, Pas, Per, LP?
11/11/2012 1:27 AM
what do you think of my first d2 recruiting class? Topic

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