Really, you call bs on 70/60/70 at D2?  It's like no one even read my Herb Brooks quote.  You people are just disagreeing on semantics, and showing that you can't find any current teams like that just supports the point that that team would probably win a title.  It's a very good goal to set, whether you can personally reach it or not.

I had a team in Rupp a while back that was 70/55/73 Ath/Spd/Def.  D3 Rupp, season 60.  Must be a bunch of morons in that world to allow me to build that with a lowly D3 team (sublightd was in D3 Rupp in season 60 for those who don't get the joke).  And since you're worried about superclasses, it was 4-2-3-3.

I don't see how you can say "shoot for this rating" is semantics. In fact, that's the opposite of what semantics means. Yes, it's a goal...but the only team I've seen come close to that is the team you are talking about. One team out of every D3 and D2 team in 5 worlds. And yes, I was stunned that someone could recruit that in a full, competitive conference and world. Granted, that conference had a lot of recruiting money. I do recall that a couple GNE schools came out to TX and took some guys. I didn't have enough money, or spots to take them all. I figure that was a perfect storm to pull thus kind of class. I notice that team hasn't come close to that since.

I don't know why you say I'm worried about superclassed. I'm not worried about anything. I'm just pointing out that even superclassed, the top teams that have been winning titles don't have that rating. When someone says to me " this is an elite rating", it means that elite schools will have that rating. Meaning maybe 5-10 schools will have it. Naming one school out of over a 1000 5-6 seasons ago doesn't fit.

I also think it does a disservice to the OP, and newbies because they'll think they are supposed to be able to recruit that, when in reality, the top title winning teams aren't doing it.

The hard part about 70/60/70 in D2 is the 60 spd, not the 70ath/def. 60 Speed is hard to hit because we all would take a 90ath/90reb/90def/10 spd big in a heartbeat, so the 60 speed thing is an overstatement, but I stand by that elite D2 is 70ath/70def, with sped in the 55-60 range. If you guys want to nit pick and say a team with 69ath/75def doesn't fall into the 70/70 ath/def category, then so be it.

When someone says to me " this is an elite rating", it means that elite schools will have that rating. Meaning maybe 5-10 schools will have it.

This is why you're arguing semantics.  Someone just said that you should shoot for 70/70 at D2.  That is a true statement.  You just like setting very obtainable goals apparently. 

Frankly 70/70 isn't that difficult to reach at D2 if you really focus on those ratings and know what you're doing.  You can find 90 Ath/Def types even at D3.

You listed out supperclass teams like that was the only way to conceivably hit those targets.  I disagree with that.

Well...I'll just say a couple things, and be done. I won't be revisting this thread. I forgot why I don't post very often and I just got reminded. Part of it was my own fault for typing BS in my original statement which made it more combative than I wanted. My fault, and I apologize. I'd edit it, but I don't want people to think I'm pulling something.

I agree 70/70 is can be reached. I was saying that 70/60/70 was much more difficult. I would never argue that 70/70 isn't obtainable. So it sounds like we're agreeing.

I mentioned superclasses because clearly thats the EASIEST way to reach those numbers, and yet teams STILL aren't hitting those them. The 70/60/70 numbers. Not the 70/70 numbers, which we are in agreement about. I don't think you can argue that almost NO teams hit this rating.

My true point about all this is that the OP wanted advice about his team. He was given what was IMHO "shoot for the moon" numbers that the winning teams don't reach. He/she would be better served by emulating the top teams, which is not blind adherence to the 70/60/70 numbers that no one has.

i can appreciate both sides here... its mostly a difference in context/experience, to me. 

i think the 70/70 standard is a bit high myself, or 70/60/70. i had a few d2 teams in a row get there, so i certainly agree its possible - but its just not a realistic goal to put out there, IMO. the reality to me is that the average d2 championship team doesn't hit an average of 70 ath/def, you see teams all the time win in the 60s. in my time here i learned the goals i set for myself are not necessarily realistic goals to put out there for others, and i think a few people could use to realize that. in our GLV conference, dwoelflin was dominant, and lots of his teams were right around the 65 ath/def mark. there is more to the game than an ath/def mark as we all know, and some people try to hit higher marks there while focusing less on other areas, and some dont. neither approach has been shown to me to be clearly superior to the other.

i personally would suggest if people want to start competing for deep d2 runs, you need to at least be hitting 60/60 ath/def and preferably the 65/65 mark if you are hoping to compete for a championship. a well constructed 70/70 team should be an easy title favorite, but well constructed 65/65 teams can also be easy title favorites. going over 65/65 can help but its certainly not necessary, even to compete at the highest level of competition, assuming you define that as best in the country level, not trying to be a best all time team type (which a few people may use at goals, but its misleading to share those goals as goals the general population should use). so while its not an unreasonable level to hit, i think it is an unreasonably high level to use as a general guideline - it is going to push people too far into the camp of focusing too much on ath/def, which is certainly possible, and thus, i think pushing for that level as a general guideline is a bit of a disservice. by no means do you need to average 70/70 to be the best team in the country, and certainly not to compete for titles.

Posted by sublightd on 8/14/2013 11:40:00 PM (view original):
Yeah I gotta call bs on the 70/60/70. I'm not sure what world allows you to recruit that, but I'm in 5 worlds, and no championship team has even sniffed that in recent memory. There's many ways to win, and we all know ath/spd/d is one, and the most successful. But those numbers aren't legit.

In Knight, St Augstines is superclassed fully, and is 685 rated and they are 59/63/63. That's superclassed, in Knight, arguably a very weak D2 world. In Phelan, Angelo St is 703, 10 man superclass, 58/66/63. W Alabama is the most ath laden team, at 71/49/71. Still not even close. In Tark, Wa Adventist won the NT with 666, 9 man superclass, no FR, 64/53/64. D2 Tark is very competitive. There isn't a single team in the world with 70 ath, and only 4 with 70 D.

So yeah, even superclassed in less populated worlds, I've not seen anyone hit that. In competitive worlds, i dont think any school can legitimately recruit that. Certainly not the championship teams are rolling out 70/60/70 numbers.

its the "i dont think any school can legitimately recruit that" part that got you - i think i agree with your general premise, but i definitely disagree with you on that point, i think i hit the 70/60/70 mark myself 3 times in a row in d2 when i really set my mind to it - within the confines of constructing a quality team. there are plenty of guys who are better d2 & d3 coaches than me these days, so im sure these guys are being honest when they say they've hit those marks themselves without too much difficulty. but still, what tianyi or killbatman accomplished in the lower divisions and used as metrics for themselves, really doesnt have that much relevance in a discussion on general guidelines.

I hit 65/60/60 a couple of times in D3. 70/60/70 is a goal that you should aim for in D2 to be the heavy favorite for the NC. No one said it's easy because if it is, then 70/60/70 isn't going to be enough for you to be the heavy favorite. 

I don't understand why people are being so obtuse about the word "goal."  It doesn't mean you're a failure if you don't reach it.  But it's a terrific bar to keep in mind to strive for. 

The Herb Brooks quote is spot on for this.  They pretty much laughed at his goal of beating the Russians and he said, yeah, that's why it's my goal, because no one thinks we can do it.

I completely agree that emulating successful coaches is the quickest way to get better.  And yet some of those people are posting in this thread with advice and are being told that it's unrealistic.  That's the disservice to newer coaches, imo.  You're much more likely to improve as a coach if you're constantly trying to reach some higher bar. 

I won't be revisting this thread. I forgot why I don't post very often and I just got reminded. Part of it was my own fault for typing BS in my original statement which made it more combative than I wanted. My fault, and I apologize. I'd edit it, but I don't want people to think I'm pulling something.

No need for this part btw.  You made a rather combative clarification that was incorrect and you got called on it.  No big deal, we're mostly all adults here.  No need to turn it into a Lifetime special.

Posted by tianyi7886 on 8/15/2013 1:43:00 PM (view original):
I hit 65/60/60 a couple of times in D3. 70/60/70 is a goal that you should aim for in D2 to be the heavy favorite for the NC. No one said it's easy because if it is, then 70/60/70 isn't going to be enough for you to be the heavy favorite. 

i can pretty much agree with this - its a good goal if you are trying to be a HEAVY FAVORITE for the title. thats not really a normal goal though - which is how it seems this was presented, which to me, caused the confusion/disagreement. its not really clear what the goal is for when expressed - is this to make the NT? win your first title? be an average #1 in the country team? or to enter the echelons above the std #1 team? those are all very different... im not sure what the "default" is, but im pretty sure its not to be a heavy favorite to win the NT - thats what im getting at. i agree its a good goal for that purpose but that not relevant to most people - where as a lot of people at least have their best team getting up there in the competing for a deep NT run or something, which seems to be often the "default" levels people are expressing when stating things like this. good to great, but not exceptionally good. anyway like i said first and foremost i think its a context/experience gap here, not so much that people actually disagree as strongly as it seems to come across.

OP wrote "I think I've finally done it. I think I've finally built a team that can contend," which I take to mean contend for a title. 

Posted by gillispie1 on 8/15/2013 3:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 8/15/2013 1:43:00 PM (view original):
I hit 65/60/60 a couple of times in D3. 70/60/70 is a goal that you should aim for in D2 to be the heavy favorite for the NC. No one said it's easy because if it is, then 70/60/70 isn't going to be enough for you to be the heavy favorite. 

i can pretty much agree with this - its a good goal if you are trying to be a HEAVY FAVORITE for the title. thats not really a normal goal though - which is how it seems this was presented, which to me, caused the confusion/disagreement. its not really clear what the goal is for when expressed - is this to make the NT? win your first title? be an average #1 in the country team? or to enter the echelons above the std #1 team? those are all very different... im not sure what the "default" is, but im pretty sure its not to be a heavy favorite to win the NT - thats what im getting at. i agree its a good goal for that purpose but that not relevant to most people - where as a lot of people at least have their best team getting up there in the competing for a deep NT run or something, which seems to be often the "default" levels people are expressing when stating things like this. good to great, but not exceptionally good. anyway like i said first and foremost i think its a context/experience gap here, not so much that people actually disagree as strongly as it seems to come across.

Agree and it would be better if we all articulated those different standards instead of giving a "one size fits all" type response.  It might be discouraging to a really new coach to see a single "standard" like 70/70 that seems impossibly out of reach.  On the other hand, it's not good advice to tell a coach who makes the NT regularly and wants to take it to the next level that 55/55 (or whatever we think the avg D2 NT team is) is a good standard to go by.

But I definitely think it's better for newer coaches to hear that things like 70/70 can be done.  It amazes me how dismissive people were about that. 

Posted by tianyi7886 on 8/15/2013 3:49:00 PM (view original):
OP wrote "I think I've finally done it. I think I've finally built a team that can contend," which I take to mean contend for a title. 

Also agree with this.  I read that the same way.  OP has been around since 2011, not exactly brand new.

I've been to 4 straight Final Fours in D2 Iba, and while I haven't managed to win a title yet, I at least know a thing or 2 about making deep D2 runs.  Those 4 teams averages in athleticism, speed and def were (from most recent backwards): 66/55/68, 64/55/67 (this one made the title game), 64/60/65 and 62/57/61.  To me, 65/55/65 is a reasonably attainable goal and you will definitely have a title quality team if you can get to that as long as you aren't ignoring other areas.  This season after 17 games I'm at 63/54/62 and I should pick up about 2 points in each of them by the tournament.  I always try to get to 65/65 in atheleticism/defense, and I try to have guards and SFs with speed.

In D2 Iba right now there are 5 teams at 65/65 and a few more that are likely to get there by the end of the season, so that alone won't get it done.  3 of those 5 are at 65/55/65.  Of those 3, 1 is a poor rebounding team with just 1 player over 80 in LP and one over 80 in PE (he is at 94) be that is still a good team.  The other 2 look like legit title contenders as they can also score and rebound.  One of them is at 80 in stamina, which I contend is the most underrated attribute in all of HD.  Without good stamina, your good players can become average players quickly.