Can anyone explain how Lewis gets an 11 seed and Missouri, St. Louis is a 12 seed? Is the projection report not strictly followed? Note that both are in the same conference, so that does not explain it.

	School	Conf	Coach	Rank	RPI	SOS	Record	Home	Away	Neutral	Last 10	NT Projection
3.	St. Joseph's (IN)	GLV	mniven	7	5	2	22-6	12-2	9-3	1-1	7-3	Lock
4.	S. Illinois, Edwardsville	GLV	bro_lunardi	6	10	9	23-6	5-4	15-2	3-0	8-2	Lock
6.	N. Kentucky	GLV	carlbuzz	11	9	28	23-5	7-1	15-3	1-1	7-3	Lock
8.	Kentucky Wesleyan	GLV	sharrow	15	7	1	19-8	5-4	14-3	0-1	9-1	Lock
12.	Quincy	GLV	tb01	23	16	8	21-9	7-3	11-5	3-1	7-3	Lock
18.	Bellarmine	GLV	fussyd	21	26	32	21-8	12-2	8-5	1-1	6-4	Lock
38.	Wisconsin, Parkside	GLV	mattstarks		41	4	14-13	5-6	9-6	0-1	1-9	Bubble
43.	Missouri, St. Louis	GLV	zbrent716		37	11	15-12	3-5	12-6	0-1	3-7	Bubble
46.	Lewis	GLV	gpgp		70	46	16-12	9-4	6-7	1-1	4-6	Bubble
51.	U. of Indianapolis	GLV	tredunn		47	17	14-13	3-5	11-7	0-1	2-8	Bubble
73.	S. Indiana	GLV	wondersj		89	21	12-16	7-5	4-10	1-1	5-5	Bubble
177.	Mercyhurst	GLV	platoisek		210	29	3-24	3-10	0-13	0-1	0-10	Out

This is purely conjection but Lewis' record vs. the top 50 was 8-10 (44.4%) Mo. St. Louis went 4-9 (30.8%).   I know that one of the considerations is your record vs. the top 50. 
 Even if a human committee had seeded the teams, however,  Lewis swept both games with St. Louis this season

Posted by alblack56 on 6/25/2014 5:49:00 PM (view original):
This is purely conjection but Lewis' record vs. the top 50 was 8-10 (44.4%) Mo. St. Louis went 4-9 (30.8%).   I know that one of the considerations is your record vs. the top 50. 
 Even if a human committee had seeded the teams, however,  Lewis swept both games with St. Louis this season

all this is irrelevant if the projection report listed the order as zbrent said. the projection report is the be all and end all, when it comes to the tournament seeding S curve - the only other factor is actual seeding is the placement of conference teams. 

Posted by zbrent716 on 6/25/2014 5:10:00 PM (view original):
Can anyone explain how Lewis gets an 11 seed and Missouri, St. Louis is a 12 seed? Is the projection report not strictly followed? Note that both are in the same conference, so that does not explain it.

 

Midwest		East		South		West
1	California, San Diego (26-3)	1	S. Illinois, Edwardsville (23-6)	1	S.W. Baptist (28-1)	1	St. Joseph's (IN) (22-6)
2	Kentucky Wesleyan (19-8)	2	N. Alabama (27-2)	2	N. Kentucky (23-5)	2	CSU, Dominguez Hills (22-6)
3	W. Chester (PA) (28-1)	3	Quincy (21-9)	3	Texas A&M, Commerce (22-7)	3	American International (26-3)
4	UNC, Pembroke (25-4)	4	St. Leo (26-3)	4	Grand Canyon (20-7)	4	Felician (23-5)
5	Benedict (24-5)	5	CSU, Stanislaus (22-8)	5	Bellarmine (21-8)	5	Nova Southeastern (25-4)
6	San Francisco St. (17-11)	6	U. of DC (24-5)	6	Chaminade (26-3)	6	Montevallo (22-7)
7	Nebraska, Kearney (26-3)	7	CSU, Bakersfield (18-10)	7	CSU, San Bernardino (18-10)	7	Tuskegee (27-2)
8	St. Michael's (23-6)	8	SW Oklahoma St. (22-7)	8	Hillsdale (20-9)	8	Millersville (24-5)
9	St. Cloud St. (28-1)	9	W. Virginia Wesleyan (19-9)	9	Alabama, Huntsville (23-6)	9	Cal. Poly Pomona (18-10)
10	SE Oklahoma St. (19-10)	10	N.W. Missouri St. (24-5)	10	Clarion U. (24-5)	10	Wisconsin, Parkside (14-13)
11	Lewis (16-12)	11	Assumption (20-9)	11	Bentley (18-10)	11	W. Washington (25-4)
12	Missouri, St. Louis (15-12)	12	N. Carolina Central (26-3)	12	Slippery Rock (21-7)	12	Wingate (23-6)
13	Tampa (22-6)	13	New Mexico Highlands (20-8)	13	Limestone (25-4)	13	U. of Indianapolis (14-13)
14	Missouri S&T (18-10)	14	Bloomfield (24-6)	14	Valdosta St. (20-8)	14	Lees-McRae (23-5)
15	Central Arkansas (22-7)	15	LIU, CW Post (21-8)	15	Nyack (22-5)	15	Ashland (19-10)
16	St. Mary's (TX) (19-9)	16	Concord (23-6)	16	Western St. (20-10)	16	Pittsburgh, Johnstown (22-7)

Conference: 

	School	Conf	Coach	Rank	RPI	SOS	Record	Home	Away	Neutral	Last 10	NT Projection
3.	St. Joseph's (IN)	GLV	mniven	7	5	2	22-6	12-2	9-3	1-1	7-3	Lock
4.	S. Illinois, Edwardsville	GLV	bro_lunardi	6	10	9	23-6	5-4	15-2	3-0	8-2	Lock
6.	N. Kentucky	GLV	carlbuzz	11	9	28	23-5	7-1	15-3	1-1	7-3	Lock
8.	Kentucky Wesleyan	GLV	sharrow	15	7	1	19-8	5-4	14-3	0-1	9-1	Lock
12.	Quincy	GLV	tb01	23	16	8	21-9	7-3	11-5	3-1	7-3	Lock
18.	Bellarmine	GLV	fussyd	21	26	32	21-8	12-2	8-5	1-1	6-4	Lock
38.	Wisconsin, Parkside	GLV	mattstarks		41	4	14-13	5-6	9-6	0-1	1-9	Bubble
43.	Missouri, St. Louis	GLV	zbrent716		37	11	15-12	3-5	12-6	0-1	3-7	Bubble
46.	Lewis	GLV	gpgp		70	46	16-12	9-4	6-7	1-1	4-6	Bubble
51.	U. of Indianapolis	GLV	tredunn		47	17	14-13	3-5	11-7	0-1	2-8	Bubble
73.	S. Indiana	GLV	wondersj		89	21	12-16	7-5	4-10	1-1	5-5	Bubble
177.	Mercyhurst	GLV	platoisek		210	29	3-24	3-10	0-13	0-1	0-10	Out

yes, i can explain it. are you familiar with how the projection report places teams? essentially, it goes from the 1 spot all the way down. it tries to put the next team its trying in the highest available spot - but if there is a conf mate in that region, it will move on. the algorithm fails to place a team (because all regions are taken, which always happens to the 5th team), then it starts over, using half-regions as the restriction, and then quarter-regions (if needed, which is rare - i think it uses quarter-regions - but it might not, it might just pick the next available spot - regardless, this would start for the 9th team in conf). as a result, a strange phenomenon can occur with the 8th and 9th (and even 10th) teams in a conference. when the 8th team is seeded, all 7 other half-regions are taken, so this team will automatically get the highest spot available in that 8th region. then, when the 9th team in conference goes to get seeded, the half-region restriction is lightened, so some higher seeds can actually open up for that 9th team (and even 10th, 11th, and 12th teams, technically).

im curious, was the lewis squad given the next highest spot, or were they also moved around to satisfy a quarter-region restriction? if the next highest spot, was there anyone in conf in that quarter region? the lewis placement might be able to clear up if quarter regions are used, if there is a GLV team in the quarter region with the highest available spot when lewis was placed. but, it might not be able to clear that up, it just depends how things shook out.

gillispie1, it's late, but I have close to no idea what you're talking about. If it helps, I'll paste the NT brackets tomorrow (though I don't see at the moment what additional information that would provide, beyond what the seeding above does).

I think what gillispie is saying is that WIS tries and breaks each NT bracket into halves (i.e. West top/bottom) and for the first 8 teams from the same conference, it tries to put one into each half, based on the projected seed so that conference mates won't meet until the elite 8 at worst.  That only will work for the first 8 NT teams from a conference however.  So when it was time to place Missiouri, St. Louis (the 8th team from GLV), the only open half bracket was the top bracket of the Midwest (the bottom half was covered by N. Kentucky with a #2 seed).

Thus even though you were slated for a #11 seed, that would of put your team in the bottom half of the bracket but if they pushed you back to #12, then all 8 half brackets would be filled.

Next when it tries to place Lewis, since all 8 half brackets are now filled with conference mates, WIS eases up on that restriction and sees that the highest seed that it can put Lewis in now is a #11 which it does so (as long as it won't allow for conference mates to meet until the S16 which can't happen for the #2 vs. #11).

So generally the 8th NT team from the same conference will either get their assigned seed or pushed back in NT seeding while the 9th one might get pushed up if it is close enough to the 8th team on the projection report.

Posted by buddhagamer on 6/26/2014 10:19:00 AM (view original):
I think what gillispie is saying is that WIS tries and breaks each NT bracket into halves (i.e. West top/bottom) and for the first 8 teams from the same conference, it tries to put one into each half, based on the projected seed so that conference mates won't meet until the elite 8 at worst.  That only will work for the first 8 NT teams from a conference however.  So when it was time to place Missiouri, St. Louis (the 8th team from GLV), the only open half bracket was the top bracket of the Midwest (the bottom half was covered by N. Kentucky with a #2 seed).

Thus even though you were slated for a #11 seed, that would of put your team in the bottom half of the bracket but if they pushed you back to #12, then all 8 half brackets would be filled.

Next when it tries to place Lewis, since all 8 half brackets are now filled with conference mates, WIS eases up on that restriction and sees that the highest seed that it can put Lewis in now is a #11 which it does so (as long as it won't allow for conference mates to meet until the S16 which can't happen for the #2 vs. #11).

So generally the 8th NT team from the same conference will either get their assigned seed or pushed back in NT seeding while the 9th one might get pushed up if it is close enough to the 8th team on the projection report.

Ah-ha. Thanks!

Posted by buddhagamer on 6/26/2014 10:19:00 AM (view original):
I think what gillispie is saying is that WIS tries and breaks each NT bracket into halves (i.e. West top/bottom) and for the first 8 teams from the same conference, it tries to put one into each half, based on the projected seed so that conference mates won't meet until the elite 8 at worst.  That only will work for the first 8 NT teams from a conference however.  So when it was time to place Missiouri, St. Louis (the 8th team from GLV), the only open half bracket was the top bracket of the Midwest (the bottom half was covered by N. Kentucky with a #2 seed).

Thus even though you were slated for a #11 seed, that would of put your team in the bottom half of the bracket but if they pushed you back to #12, then all 8 half brackets would be filled.

Next when it tries to place Lewis, since all 8 half brackets are now filled with conference mates, WIS eases up on that restriction and sees that the highest seed that it can put Lewis in now is a #11 which it does so (as long as it won't allow for conference mates to meet until the S16 which can't happen for the #2 vs. #11).

So generally the 8th NT team from the same conference will either get their assigned seed or pushed back in NT seeding while the 9th one might get pushed up if it is close enough to the 8th team on the projection report.

thanks for the translation :)

because WIS actually tries whole regions first (which guarantees the top 4 teams from a conf will always be in different regions), the same thing can happen with 4th and 5th place.

I wonder if it wouldn't be better for WIS to assign conference spots first instead of the actual teams (i.e. so instead of Kentucky Wesleyan being penciled in right away into the #2 seed in Midwest, that spot is just assigned to GLV).  Then once all the spots have been assigned to go through the projection report for each conference and fill in the highest seed from each conference into the best available conference spot.

Posted by buddhagamer on 6/26/2014 10:58:00 AM (view original):
I wonder if it wouldn't be better for WIS to assign conference spots first instead of the actual teams (i.e. so instead of Kentucky Wesleyan being penciled in right away into the #2 seed in Midwest, that spot is just assigned to GLV).  Then once all the spots have been assigned to go through the projection report for each conference and fill in the highest seed from each conference into the best available conference spot.

it would be better, but the only time it would matter is for that 4th/5th team possible switching, and the 8th/9th. overall, not worth the effort, seems to me. 9 teams in the NT from 1 conf is pretty rare, and the 4th/5th thing would be asked about more if it happened frequently.