Recruiting Update - Scouting Topic

#postseasoncashmatters
9/17/2015 4:59 PM
Posted by kevodaphenom on 9/17/2015 4:59:00 PM (view original):
#postseasoncashmatters
come on, #allcashmatters
9/17/2015 5:17 PM
#MYcashmatters

9/17/2015 5:41 PM
Posted by pepwaves on 9/17/2015 4:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tarvolon on 9/17/2015 4:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by pepwaves on 9/17/2015 4:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by brianxavier on 9/17/2015 3:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by zorzii on 9/17/2015 7:56:00 AM (view original):
I'm with Pep and Ggal, I did not see it the way they do, but removing post-season cash could end up making the game more boring, with less competitive conférences and coaches challenging themselves to make their conference the best.

I am totally against removing pull-downs also.It's one of the most fun part of recruiting. It takes strategy and it's something ruins your recruiting because It's exactly what it should be, a risk.
removing pulls downs ABSOLUTELY SUCKS.  It is very risky, takes strategy - great feature even if it may have been unintentional at first I suppose (which is the sense I get).

I don't know how many more times we can tell him that we LIKE at least SOME post season cash. 
He seems pretty stubborn.  He's basically ignored everyone's points on the postseason cash, which concerns me because who is he doing this update for?  The paying customers or himself?

Very strange...

Honestly, I think he didn't totally understand the points on postseason cash. He sees it as an unnecessary incentive to join full conferences (unnecessary because full conferences are more fun and thus already incentivized). He doesn't realize it is actually a counterbalance to the fact that it is harder to succeed in a full conference because so many good coaches are fighting for the same pool of local recruits
Yeah I agree.  And this is exactly why I fear the worst for this update.  If he doesn't understand how this game works at all levels and what motivates the current user base, his changes have a very small likelihood of success.  Why would you try to change something you don't understand fully?
You don't have to understand fully if you're soliciting advance and willing to listen, and he seems to generally be doing both. I figure this will get addressed at some point.
9/17/2015 6:00 PM
Then you are more optimistic than I, tarv. ;)  What I've read so far in the developer chat and forum threads doesn't suggest he is willing to listen really.  He especially is not acknowledging that he lacks full understanding and he really isn't soliciting much advice...from what I've seen.  On a few things maybe (i.e. recruiting timeline), but most things...no...unfortunately.
9/17/2015 7:00 PM (edited)
There is not  single person I've seen that agrees with completely cutting post season cash.  Literally anyone who has said something about post season cash wants it.

Just reduce the amount at D1, leave it the same for D2/D3
9/17/2015 7:26 PM
Yeah, D2 and D3 is allright. It needs to shrink at D1 by 50%.
9/17/2015 7:29 PM
Posted by the0nlyis on 9/17/2015 7:26:00 PM (view original):
There is not  single person I've seen that agrees with completely cutting post season cash.  Literally anyone who has said something about post season cash wants it.

Just reduce the amount at D1, leave it the same for D2/D3
Yep....which makes Seble's stubbornness on this issue perplexing.
9/17/2015 7:50 PM
Posted by pepwaves on 9/17/2015 7:00:00 PM (view original):
Then you are more optimistic than I, tarv. ;)  What I've read so far in the developer chat and forum threads doesn't suggest he is willing to listen really.  He especially is not acknowledging that he lacks full understanding and he really isn't soliciting much advice...from what I've seen.  On a few things maybe (i.e. recruiting timeline), but most things...no...unfortunately.
maybe I am unrealistically optimistic. Maybe it's because I don't play GD and wasn't here last time an HD update screwed things up. but it seems like seble is genuinely looking for feedback, it's just that most of the feedback regarding postseason cash has been put in the form of an argument that he feels he can answer. I think there is a missing supporting premise (that power conferences are actively disincentivized without postseason cash) that makes it all make sense. Maybe he's ignoring that, but personally I just haven't seen it that prominent in the complaints, and I honestly think it is the key to the complaints
9/17/2015 7:58 PM
Posted by tarvolon on 9/17/2015 7:58:00 PM (view original):
Posted by pepwaves on 9/17/2015 7:00:00 PM (view original):
Then you are more optimistic than I, tarv. ;)  What I've read so far in the developer chat and forum threads doesn't suggest he is willing to listen really.  He especially is not acknowledging that he lacks full understanding and he really isn't soliciting much advice...from what I've seen.  On a few things maybe (i.e. recruiting timeline), but most things...no...unfortunately.
maybe I am unrealistically optimistic. Maybe it's because I don't play GD and wasn't here last time an HD update screwed things up. but it seems like seble is genuinely looking for feedback, it's just that most of the feedback regarding postseason cash has been put in the form of an argument that he feels he can answer. I think there is a missing supporting premise (that power conferences are actively disincentivized without postseason cash) that makes it all make sense. Maybe he's ignoring that, but personally I just haven't seen it that prominent in the complaints, and I honestly think it is the key to the complaints
I've seen myself, you, brianxavier, the0nlyis, kevodaphenom, cbg, and probably a few others I'm missing argue that very point.  The problem is seble has quickly dismissed that argument (as we saw in the developer chat) or ignored it (as we have seen in the forum threads). 
9/17/2015 8:04 PM
Posted by tarvolon on 9/17/2015 7:58:00 PM (view original):
Posted by pepwaves on 9/17/2015 7:00:00 PM (view original):
Then you are more optimistic than I, tarv. ;)  What I've read so far in the developer chat and forum threads doesn't suggest he is willing to listen really.  He especially is not acknowledging that he lacks full understanding and he really isn't soliciting much advice...from what I've seen.  On a few things maybe (i.e. recruiting timeline), but most things...no...unfortunately.
maybe I am unrealistically optimistic. Maybe it's because I don't play GD and wasn't here last time an HD update screwed things up. but it seems like seble is genuinely looking for feedback, it's just that most of the feedback regarding postseason cash has been put in the form of an argument that he feels he can answer. I think there is a missing supporting premise (that power conferences are actively disincentivized without postseason cash) that makes it all make sense. Maybe he's ignoring that, but personally I just haven't seen it that prominent in the complaints, and I honestly think it is the key to the complaints
I'm in your camp tarvolon. We are on Team Optimism!
9/17/2015 9:20 PM
Posted by pepwaves on 9/17/2015 4:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tarvolon on 9/17/2015 4:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by pepwaves on 9/17/2015 4:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by brianxavier on 9/17/2015 3:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by zorzii on 9/17/2015 7:56:00 AM (view original):
I'm with Pep and Ggal, I did not see it the way they do, but removing post-season cash could end up making the game more boring, with less competitive conférences and coaches challenging themselves to make their conference the best.

I am totally against removing pull-downs also.It's one of the most fun part of recruiting. It takes strategy and it's something ruins your recruiting because It's exactly what it should be, a risk.
removing pulls downs ABSOLUTELY SUCKS.  It is very risky, takes strategy - great feature even if it may have been unintentional at first I suppose (which is the sense I get).

I don't know how many more times we can tell him that we LIKE at least SOME post season cash. 
He seems pretty stubborn.  He's basically ignored everyone's points on the postseason cash, which concerns me because who is he doing this update for?  The paying customers or himself?

Very strange...

Honestly, I think he didn't totally understand the points on postseason cash. He sees it as an unnecessary incentive to join full conferences (unnecessary because full conferences are more fun and thus already incentivized). He doesn't realize it is actually a counterbalance to the fact that it is harder to succeed in a full conference because so many good coaches are fighting for the same pool of local recruits
Yeah I agree.  And this is exactly why I fear the worst for this update.  If he doesn't understand how this game works at all levels and what motivates the current user base, his changes have a very small likelihood of success.  Why would you try to change something you don't understand fully?
its true, seble doesn't understand the game like coaches do. he understands it like a developer does - that means, he has more information at what goes on behind the scenes, he can know what factors into different pieces in ways we can't. but what we know, that he doesn't, is how it all fits together. he's never coached a successful team. he sees equations - we see a game. it really is an issue - over time, consistently, he misjudges the subtle nature of the game, and makes compensations that are too great in magnitude. his best work usually comes when he is dealing with over compensations or overdone effects (like potential). his potential release, his first ever, basically saved HD. its without question the most successful release in my tenure as a coach (including pre-seble days). for the newer folks, you used to have players get near caps as FR, and all cap by SO yr. it was a mess. he lowered the rate of improvement, basically halved it (all his best work involves halving things), along with a few other tweaks. it restored sanity to the game.

if you look at the new engine rewrite release, he made several compensations, most notably, scoring efficiencies, the rating importance reallocation, and the increase of the negative impact of low stamina. when those 3 came out, they were all overdone. lp scorers were suddenly scoring like, 60 plus percent on a season, all over... it was insane. scorers in general were just too high. but especially lp scorers. so he tweaked both - now both are reasonable - although lp scorers are again too low, but hey, its a lot closer than its ever been in my time. the impact of low stamina was off the charts. he modified it, and now its really a reasonable effect, and fits really nicely within the game. press has been balanced. also, the rating impact - it made defense matter - it was mostly good, ath/def are overstated - but he never adjusted that, although it was the least out of whack of them all. the final change - he redid recruit generation completely - very probably the most destructive change in HD history. never touched that one, and it reduced the number of filled jobs in d1 by a third. 

seble, to his credit, is good at listening. because many don't talk, and some more loudly than others, and because he lacks the context of a game player, thats hard - he can listen, but who knows if hes listening to the "right ones" (i mean ideas, not people) or putting it all in the proper context. generally, he takes a stab at a real problem. he often overshoots. sometimes he fixes that. in the end, he has many successes, but his one big failure was a REALLY big failure. in that, he adjusted something he didn't really understand, in ways he didn't understand the ramifications of - and never compensated when coaches told him the reality afterwards. the other changes were mostly more discrete. the potential era came like, 1-2 years before he became admin. EVERYONE hated the speed of improvement, it was really clear that was the problem and how to fix it. the other adjustments he made, largely were good - after adjustment. he generally stabs in the right direction, but is often off by enough due to lack of context, that a readjustment is needed once the real coaches put it in context.

to me, it means we should definitely give him a chance, and be understanding when he screws stuff up, because he has done a lot of good. on the flip side, it means his best chance of success is being focused on particular areas and making smaller releases so he can adjust them as needed, along the way. i think he can do many of the things he talks about - just not all at once. its just grown too large, that after thought of adjusting pulldowns/dropdowns is really a recipe for disaster. if he finds a way to keep the scope limited and really work on 1 or 2 things, at a time, i think he's really got a shot. but the current release as stated is terrifyingly large...

9/17/2015 10:43 PM (edited)
"(all his best work involves halving things)"

thats actually the work of intern, this guy named Zeno
9/17/2015 10:04 PM
i might just be bitter that he skipped my questions in the dev chat ;) but really, he has done a lot of good. he just gets pulled away. and is over ambitious. can't too much fault him for that last one... does cause us a good amount of heartburn, though.
9/17/2015 10:30 PM
if he does away with postseason cash, he will kill the game and many of the best coaches will leave.
9/17/2015 11:09 PM
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