Any help would be appreciated Topic

Hey all,

I've read through the recruiting stuff and have a basic understanding of how to do it. I've had some fairly good success recruiting, so I can't complain there. My question is, how do I tweak the gameplan and depth chart to get the most out of my players. I'm also not sure I'm fully grasping what type of players each playbook scheme needs to be successful. I have a team (Central St) that has multiple 700 rated players, but seem to be getting my butt handed to me on a regular basis. Even with the other teams I have, I have solid players but can't seem to contend with owners who have less rated teams than I do. 

If anyone can shoot me a Site Mail and give me a basic rundown, or even just some advice as to how the playbooks (Triangle, Motion..etc) work and the players they utilize, that'd be great. 

Not looking for anyone to tell me how to play, just not really grasping why certain playbooks aren't working with the players I have, and wondering if there's a formula or something I'm not aware of with Gameplanning..etc.  

Thank you, 

Tony

1/4/2016 11:43 AM (edited)
I don't think Gameplanning is your problem. A few things to note:

1. You had a brutal non-conference schedule. Outside of IU-PA, you faced 9 top 100 teams. You have to get better at scheduling -- there is no need to play that kind of schedule unless you have a potential top 5 team. With smarter scheduling, your record could easily be reversed to 12-6, if not better.

2. Your team is very oddly constructed in terms of recruiting classes. You have four big men (not counting the walkon) who are all freshmen and sophomores. You have 5 seniors that break down as 2 PG, 2 SG, 1 SF. This is why you are getting outrebounded (you are getting KILLED on the offensive glass) and only averaging 15.3 ppg total from your front court -- your PF/Cs are too young.

If you keep building like this, in 2 seasons, you'll have an experienced front court with an inexperienced backcourt. Your team is always going to be lopsided unless you fix this. You need to do a better job of planning your recruiting so you can be strong all around.  Unless you in the first year of a total rebuild, you don't want to be in a position where you have to start freshmen.

3. Your offense is average. But your defense has been a tire fire (your opponents' have an offensive efficiency of 112 points per 100 possessions; your offensive efficiency is 101; the average efficiency is 100). For purposes of comparison, my D3 Carleton team in Wooden is 1-16 in the first year of a rebuilding process (had to fill 10 spots on a C- team). Carleton's opponents have an offensive efficiency of 114. So your defense is roughly 2 points better than my awful team.

You are running a man-to-man defense, but you have 8 players (not including the walk-on) who are less than 50 in DEF. Gragg is 41, Holt is 44, Schumacher is 44, Cowger is 40 and those guys are your top 4 guys in minutes played. They aren't good enough to play m2m. You either need to ramp your focus on recruiting for defense or switch to a zone D (and then recruit better rebounders).
1/4/2016 4:25 PM
Everything only said, however I will offer one specific game planning tidbit; you might need to reduce gragg's offensive load a little bit, his efficiency is suffering. Also, Cowger needs to just not be shooting threes.
1/4/2016 4:51 PM
To expand on the point about your roster construction, lets look at your depth chart over the next few seasons if you don't work on roster construction:

Season 85
PG Little -- SR Gottfried -- SR
SG Gragg -- SR Hinson -- SR
SF Cowger -- SR Jordan -- SO Daigle -- SO
PF Schumacher -- SO Zedian -- SO WALKON
C Holt -- FR Leo -- FR

Season 86
PG Frosh Frosh
SG Frosh Frosh
SF Jordan -- JR Daigle -- JR Frosh
PF Schumacher -- JR Zedian -- JR Frosh
C Holt -- SO Leo -- SO

Season 87
PG Soph Soph
SG Soph Soph
SF Jordan -- SR Daigle -- SR Soph
PF Schumacher -- SR Zedian -- SR Soph
C Holt -- JR Leo -- JR

You keep going down this path in Season 87, you're going to have a nice front court with guards that can't get them the ball.

Here is how I recruit the next two seasons if I was in your shoes to get my roster back in order....my goal in roster construction is to create a situation where I have a senior or junior starting, with a soph or freshman backing them up (ideal is SR-SOPH or JR-FR).

Season 85
PG SG SF PF C
Little (SR) Gragg (SR) Cowger (SR) Schumacher (SO) Holt (FR)
Gottfried (SR) Hinson (SR) Jordan (SO) Zedian (SO) Leo (FR)
    Daigle (SO) WALKON  

Season 86
PG SG SF PF C
JUCO (JR) JUCO (JR) Jordan (JR) Schumacher (JR) Holt (SO)
Freshman Freshman Daigle (JR) Zedian (JR) Leo (SO)
    Freshman (RS) Freshman  

Season 87
PG SG SF PF C
JUCO (SR) JUCO (SR) Jordan (SR) Schumacher (SR) Holt (JR)
Sophomore Sophomore Daigle (SR) Zedian (SR) Leo (JR)
    RSFreshman Sophomore  

Season 88
PG SG SF PF C
Junior Junior RSSophomore Holt (SR) Leo (SR)
Freshman Freshman Freshman Soph JUCO (JR)
      Freshman Freshman (RS)

Season 89
PG SG SF PF C
Senior Senior RSJunior Junior Senior
Soph Soph Soph Soph RSFresh
Freshman (RS)     Freshman  

1/4/2016 6:32 PM
and remember overall rating is one of the least important factors to consider, ath/spd doesn't hit 50 which is already low.  Ideally at D2 you should be aiming for 60+ ath in at least 50+ speed if not upper 50's.  Same with defense.  Your 2 700+ players are very overrated by their high we/sta/dur, they aren't even the best players on your roster.

Everyone else has already touched on the depth chart issue really well so I won't go into that.

In the triangle you want at least 1 elite scorer for it to be very effective(90+ lp or per) in the man defense you are going to wan't to focus on ath/def ratings to run it effectively, make sure to utilize double teams as they can make it much more effective.
1/4/2016 8:05 PM
Posted by grimacedance on 1/4/2016 4:25:00 PM (view original):
I don't think Gameplanning is your problem. A few things to note:

1. You had a brutal non-conference schedule. Outside of IU-PA, you faced 9 top 100 teams. You have to get better at scheduling -- there is no need to play that kind of schedule unless you have a potential top 5 team. With smarter scheduling, your record could easily be reversed to 12-6, if not better.

2. Your team is very oddly constructed in terms of recruiting classes. You have four big men (not counting the walkon) who are all freshmen and sophomores. You have 5 seniors that break down as 2 PG, 2 SG, 1 SF. This is why you are getting outrebounded (you are getting KILLED on the offensive glass) and only averaging 15.3 ppg total from your front court -- your PF/Cs are too young.

If you keep building like this, in 2 seasons, you'll have an experienced front court with an inexperienced backcourt. Your team is always going to be lopsided unless you fix this. You need to do a better job of planning your recruiting so you can be strong all around.  Unless you in the first year of a total rebuild, you don't want to be in a position where you have to start freshmen.

3. Your offense is average. But your defense has been a tire fire (your opponents' have an offensive efficiency of 112 points per 100 possessions; your offensive efficiency is 101; the average efficiency is 100). For purposes of comparison, my D3 Carleton team in Wooden is 1-16 in the first year of a rebuilding process (had to fill 10 spots on a C- team). Carleton's opponents have an offensive efficiency of 114. So your defense is roughly 2 points better than my awful team.

You are running a man-to-man defense, but you have 8 players (not including the walk-on) who are less than 50 in DEF. Gragg is 41, Holt is 44, Schumacher is 44, Cowger is 40 and those guys are your top 4 guys in minutes played. They aren't good enough to play m2m. You either need to ramp your focus on recruiting for defense or switch to a zone D (and then recruit better rebounders).
you don't want to be in a position where you have to start freshmen.

I have a freshamn who is starter only because he is the only power foward here is his stat line for today game against Appalachin state a division 1 school.
John McLain, pf 24 3-6 0-1 1-2 1 3 0 2 1 0 3 7
Here is his stat line against the school I eventually want to oach and stay for the rest of my hoop dynasty career East Carolina University divison 1 school
John McLain, pf 13 1-1 0-0 0-0 1 1 1 2 0 0 4 2

I am going to schedule against these two teams because I want to coach there eventually possible North Carolina but didn't see them on the exhibition list. But first thing first I am going to make Chowan a A+ perstige before I leave and win a conference championship to build a resume for mysef.
1/4/2016 10:47 PM
I'm going to sorta split with Only on one thing:  I don't think stamina is a rating to ignore when evaluating a player like DUR or(At least from the perspective of immediate on floor performance) WE.  Stamina can be very important, and getting a good player with a 95 or 6 stamina when he's developed can do wonders for you. 
1/4/2016 11:24 PM
Posted by grimacedance on 1/4/2016 4:25:00 PM (view original):
I don't think Gameplanning is your problem. A few things to note:

1. You had a brutal non-conference schedule. Outside of IU-PA, you faced 9 top 100 teams. You have to get better at scheduling -- there is no need to play that kind of schedule unless you have a potential top 5 team. With smarter scheduling, your record could easily be reversed to 12-6, if not better.

2. Your team is very oddly constructed in terms of recruiting classes. You have four big men (not counting the walkon) who are all freshmen and sophomores. You have 5 seniors that break down as 2 PG, 2 SG, 1 SF. This is why you are getting outrebounded (you are getting KILLED on the offensive glass) and only averaging 15.3 ppg total from your front court -- your PF/Cs are too young.

If you keep building like this, in 2 seasons, you'll have an experienced front court with an inexperienced backcourt. Your team is always going to be lopsided unless you fix this. You need to do a better job of planning your recruiting so you can be strong all around.  Unless you in the first year of a total rebuild, you don't want to be in a position where you have to start freshmen.

3. Your offense is average. But your defense has been a tire fire (your opponents' have an offensive efficiency of 112 points per 100 possessions; your offensive efficiency is 101; the average efficiency is 100). For purposes of comparison, my D3 Carleton team in Wooden is 1-16 in the first year of a rebuilding process (had to fill 10 spots on a C- team). Carleton's opponents have an offensive efficiency of 114. So your defense is roughly 2 points better than my awful team.

You are running a man-to-man defense, but you have 8 players (not including the walk-on) who are less than 50 in DEF. Gragg is 41, Holt is 44, Schumacher is 44, Cowger is 40 and those guys are your top 4 guys in minutes played. They aren't good enough to play m2m. You either need to ramp your focus on recruiting for defense or switch to a zone D (and then recruit better rebounders).

4) This is the type of thing that I require the most assistance in... I have no idea how the playbooks work in this. I don't know what each playbook requires to be successful. I am unaware that Man defense requires more defense. I just assumed that average defense was sufficient enough.

3) How do I know how efficient someone is going to be? I have multiple guys with high PE, Agility and Speed (with A- or better knowledge of the scheme) and they still are shooting about 39%-40%... How do I know what percentage/usage to give them? 

Game planning, and understanding the playbooks are my two biggest downfalls... I'm just learning how to recruit players effectively, I'm still working on balancing the team and such. I have no idea what playbooks require in terms of players, stats, and/or how to utilize the depth chart/usage or how to determine, for myself, which players need more or less. 

 

1/5/2016 7:56 AM (edited)
https://www.whatifsports.com/beyondtheboxscore/default.asp?article=interview_20120702

First this would be good to read ...

https://www.whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx?TopicID=453763&TopicsTimeframe=30&TopicsPage=2

And the above.

Allot of basic(and not so basic) questions get addressed.
1/5/2016 8:44 AM

That interview is amazing, thank you. 

I've read both articles. Are they both up-to-date? They seem to vary quite a bit. Is it that there is a huge variety in ways to win, or is it just a time difference in posts?

1/5/2016 10:23 AM
There's a variety of styles, to a degree you have to bake your own recipe, but those give you a lot of ingredients to do it with.
1/5/2016 12:52 PM
Posted by lilspike0738 on 1/5/2016 7:56:00 AM (view original):
Posted by grimacedance on 1/4/2016 4:25:00 PM (view original):
I don't think Gameplanning is your problem. A few things to note:

1. You had a brutal non-conference schedule. Outside of IU-PA, you faced 9 top 100 teams. You have to get better at scheduling -- there is no need to play that kind of schedule unless you have a potential top 5 team. With smarter scheduling, your record could easily be reversed to 12-6, if not better.

2. Your team is very oddly constructed in terms of recruiting classes. You have four big men (not counting the walkon) who are all freshmen and sophomores. You have 5 seniors that break down as 2 PG, 2 SG, 1 SF. This is why you are getting outrebounded (you are getting KILLED on the offensive glass) and only averaging 15.3 ppg total from your front court -- your PF/Cs are too young.

If you keep building like this, in 2 seasons, you'll have an experienced front court with an inexperienced backcourt. Your team is always going to be lopsided unless you fix this. You need to do a better job of planning your recruiting so you can be strong all around.  Unless you in the first year of a total rebuild, you don't want to be in a position where you have to start freshmen.

3. Your offense is average. But your defense has been a tire fire (your opponents' have an offensive efficiency of 112 points per 100 possessions; your offensive efficiency is 101; the average efficiency is 100). For purposes of comparison, my D3 Carleton team in Wooden is 1-16 in the first year of a rebuilding process (had to fill 10 spots on a C- team). Carleton's opponents have an offensive efficiency of 114. So your defense is roughly 2 points better than my awful team.

You are running a man-to-man defense, but you have 8 players (not including the walk-on) who are less than 50 in DEF. Gragg is 41, Holt is 44, Schumacher is 44, Cowger is 40 and those guys are your top 4 guys in minutes played. They aren't good enough to play m2m. You either need to ramp your focus on recruiting for defense or switch to a zone D (and then recruit better rebounders).

4) This is the type of thing that I require the most assistance in... I have no idea how the playbooks work in this. I don't know what each playbook requires to be successful. I am unaware that Man defense requires more defense. I just assumed that average defense was sufficient enough.

3) How do I know how efficient someone is going to be? I have multiple guys with high PE, Agility and Speed (with A- or better knowledge of the scheme) and they still are shooting about 39%-40%... How do I know what percentage/usage to give them? 

Game planning, and understanding the playbooks are my two biggest downfalls... I'm just learning how to recruit players effectively, I'm still working on balancing the team and such. I have no idea what playbooks require in terms of players, stats, and/or how to utilize the depth chart/usage or how to determine, for myself, which players need more or less. 

 

OK, a quick and dirty primer on defense:

Four primary attributes that determine defense are ATH, SPD, DEF and IQ (BLK can be important in big men). These all work together; you cannot view any of them in isolation. DEF has been described by admin as a player's willingness/effort on defense. A guy with a 1 DEF rating simply does not care about playing defense; a guy with a 100 DEF rating will give it his all. But if that 100 rating player has low ATH/SPD/IQ, he won't be an effective defender.

In guards, speed is more important than athleticism (but you still need athleticism). In big men, athleticism is more important than speed (tho speed is nice).

In a m2m defense, you need to have quality defenders across the board. If you don't, other teams will target the weak guys. Part of your problem on defense is that you are playing four guys who are weak defensively, creating easy scoring opportunities. This is why your frontcourt has been an issue. Schumacher and Holt have mediocre ATH, SPD, DEF and IQs. So if I am playing you, I am going to toss the ball inside repeatedly. Gottfried is the only guy who stands out on your roster as being a good m2m defender.

Zone allows you to hide a poor defender, but it is not a license to have a team full of them. In zone, your player's ATH/SPD/DEF/IQ is averaged out. In a 3-2 zone, your PG/SG/SF have their defensive attributes averaged to create a perimeter defense rating. So if you have a SG who is weak defensively, but a PG and SF who are strong defensively, you can still have an effective defense. A 3-2 zone works with PG/SG/SF averaged with PF/C averaged in the frontcourt. A 2-3 zone operates almost as a 2-2-1, with PG/SG averaged, SF/PF averaged and C standing alone. 

Too many coaches think zone is an excuse to have a team full of pisspoor defenders. A bunch of crappy defenders averaged out equals a crappy average.

In zone, you need to recruit for SB and REB in your big men. Shot blocking is important because it alters the inside shots -- even if the shot isn't blocked, a good shot blocker will force a shooter to shoot in it in a way that results in lower shooting percentages. You need rebounding because your big men won't be as close to the basket, so you need good rebounding to make up for it.

A full court press puts a premium on ATH/SPD as well as Stamina. In m2m, you really need that good DEF rating. In FCP, you can sacrifice some DEF (tho, not all of it) for higher ATH/SPD. You need the stamina because you are going to wear guys down (which is why it also requires the most depth).
1/5/2016 1:33 PM
Where can you see your offensive and defensive efficiency numbers? Thanks guys!
1/5/2016 1:37 PM
You have to calculate them yourself.

Offensive efficiency

(Total Points/((FGA-OFFREB)+TO+(FTA*.475)))*100

Defensive efficiency is making that same calculation based on your opponents' numbers.

As an example, we'll use my Beloit team in Naismith

Offensive efficiency: 

(1374/((1087-228)+285+(415*.475)))*100 = 102.45 OFF

Defensive efficiency:

(1406/((1158-239)+245+(389*.475)))*100 = 104.24 DEF

Which means my offense is 2 points above average and my defense is 4 points below average.


1/5/2016 1:44 PM
Posted by arssanguinus on 1/5/2016 12:52:00 PM (view original):
There's a variety of styles, to a degree you have to bake your own recipe, but those give you a lot of ingredients to do it with.
Exactly 
1/5/2016 6:21 PM
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