Posted by zags27 on 1/21/2016 5:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dan2044 on 1/20/2016 4:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by fd343ny on 1/20/2016 4:11:00 PM (view original):
another way to look at this is that existing coaches DID have the right to apply for the job - in the prior period.  They didnt.  That is why it is available to be reserved in the current cycle.

Besides for the fact that I disagree if that should matter, the original situation I contacted CS about, was a DII school that a coach who had a resume in that world, but was not coaching that current season had reserved the school.  And in that situation, still nobody else was allowed to apply.  
So it's possible someone had just joined DIII and it was their first opportunity to apply to the school.

time to back off Dan, you are off base on several levels.
#1. a new coach can not apply to D2 as you describe. (it can't happen).
#2. if it's D2, and the guy was a previous coach and is qualified.... again, he is applying for the job after everyone else in D2 and D3 that were qualified passed on the job.

#3. to answer your next post. No-one is applying (reserving), BEFORE existing coaches, they are doing only after everyone passed and that team is now still open as the new season begins....

Your #2 point is incorrect.

Lets say it is the beginning of conference play today in Smith (it is), and someone who does not have a team in Smith goes to the this page.

They can select Smith, and Reserve A Team.  They, can at that point, pick any team that they are qualified for.  This reserves the team for NEXT season (if they are qualified).

When the Job Openings happen at the end of the season, that team will not show up as Available.  Because it is reserved.  Coaches who finished the season can pick other teams, they can not pick that reserved team.

I understand why dan is upset .. if you wanted that team, you can not get it.

I can see how his could cause a problem too.  Lets say in Smith, Arizona State is open, and they are an A- prestige.  There is a limited number of people, including Dan, who was qualified.  Dan sees the team is open and he wants them .. but he thinks his Auburn team can maybe win it all, but he wants to apply for Arizona State at the end of the year.  Lets say that I am also qualified (barley) for that team.

If I apply for the team from the Reserve a Team page, whether I am the most qualified or not, I get the team when it is reserved ..Dan can not apply, nor can anyone else .. Arizona State has a coach for next season.

This, I think, is what Dan is talking about.

BUT ..  I don't really have a problem with it.

In your example Dan had a choice, he could of applied to Arizona State at the start of the present season (he had a decision and opted not to apply because he thought it was in *his* best interest to stay at Auburn.  You could only reserve the team after Dan had passed even if you had a better resume (but at worse you were qualified to coach Arizona State).

The question would be if Dan wasn't qualified to apply but after the conclusion of the present season, he felt that he would of been (which is moot due to the fact at the time you reserved the team, you were qualified and he was not).

Naismith is in jobs period right now and I can not reserve any team nor can I apply for any jobs at all (it is exclusive to coaches who presently coach in Naismith).  At the end of the job period only SIM controlled teams will be available (meaning any coach who was in that world could of applied to any of those teams and one of them could of gotten that job even if I had a better resume than anyone there if I was a returning coach).

Only after job period has ended and the season rolled over can new coaches get the scraps that the existing coaches didn't want.

Posted by dan2044 on 1/21/2016 5:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by buddhagamer on 1/21/2016 4:51:00 PM (view original):
Every single job opening is available to coaches who have teams in that world *FIRST*.  Only after jobs period is over do new coaches get to reserve a team which is either being run by the SIM or will be run by the SIM in the upcoming season if a new coach does not apply.

Now you can argue that you weren't *qualified* to apply previously but you would of had first shot at applying before the new coach did (although it could of been a very small window if an existing coach moved up late in the job period and you wanted to apply to his old school).

This is not true.  
And the fact that it's not true is exactly the point I'm trying to make.  I'm not trying to prevent any new coaches from getting jobs.  If a coach trys to reserve a team, and no existing coach applies, they can have it.  If another coach does apply, then the new coach still has a day and a half of signups to pick a team they like.

It could be I'm not explaining the situation well.  Or I'm just wrong, and everyone else thinks it makes sense to let new coaches choose over existing coaches.  And I know it's such a small number of situations it matters, but it happens.

So you're proposing that a new coach who isn't involved in a world presently, pay $$$ to get a team and then possibly not have his first, second, or even 3rd choice of teams in which he has to wait for maybe 40 days to find out someone else beat him so he has maybe 36 hours to find yet another team?  Will WIS refund his money if he doesn't get another app in or if he's not qualified for anything else that he likes?

You can't have you cake and eat it too.

Case in point is that the most valuable teams that coaches want to apply to are the ones which are presently human run and have high prestige (and/or baseline if D1) and the present coach leaves at the end of the season.  Only coaches which are already playing in the world get to apply first to these (and if any are qualified, they will get hired before any new or returning coach even can apply).

 If I won 4 NCG in a row and took a break and Duke came open, I wouldn't be allowed to apply even if my resume was 10 x better than all the other existing coaches.

Maybe you aren't being clear but most of us are saying the following:

1.  If a returning/new coach was able to reserve a team, they did so because that team was SIM controlled when they did this.
2.  If you are coaching in this world, when the person reserved the team, you had the opportunity to apply for that team at some point at the start of that season (this is why it is SIM controllled right now and allowed them to reserve it).
3.  Teams that become SIM controlled because the coach just left (either by running out of seasons or moving to a new school) *only* existing coaches can apply to these openings (new/returning coaches are blocked from applying).

Now if you are complaining that you weren't *qualified* due to the fact that you joined D3 and immediately wanted to move to a D2 school over another coach who already served their time at D3 is another matter.  If you want to argue that you should be able to reserve a team even when playing in that world already, I'd be open to that but then you would have to qualify with your existing resume (not the one that you *might* have at the end of the season).  I'd would also argue that you then shouldn't have the protection of being able to have first dibs on the valuable openings just after the season is completed either.

Posted by buddhagamer on 1/21/2016 6:17:00 PM (view original):
Naismith is in jobs period right now and I can not reserve any team nor can I apply for any jobs at all (it is exclusive to coaches who presently coach in Naismith).  At the end of the job period only SIM controlled teams will be available (meaning any coach who was in that world could of applied to any of those teams and one of them could of gotten that job even if I had a better resume than anyone there if I was a returning coach).

Only after job period has ended and the season rolled over can new coaches get the scraps that the existing coaches didn't want.

exactly. if old coaches (ill call them old coaches, to avoid the confusion with actual new coaches) want to get back into the swing, and its the jobs period, they don't even get a shot (which i think is the actual stupid thing among all this - it was probably put in place exactly to alleviate concerns like dan's or something). their only chance is when jobs has ended, to come reserve the team.

dan, you are saying the old coaches get first dibs, but it just is not true. they get last dibs. this is the process:
1) team X opens up, the old coach leaves or is fired or moves
2) only active coaches in the world get a shot
3) when jobs is over, retired coaches from the world get a shot at the leftovers

i don't think there is any debating the above... although i could be wrong. saying retired get the first shot is just ridiculous, you are taking a cyclical process, and picking a spot half way through, redefining what is the start of the process. thats not how it works. the above is how it works, and i frankly think its a process which shafts the retired coaches, i always have. they should get a shot in step 2.

Posted by buddhagamer on 1/21/2016 6:17:00 PM (view original):
Naismith is in jobs period right now and I can not reserve any team nor can I apply for any jobs at all (it is exclusive to coaches who presently coach in Naismith).  At the end of the job period only SIM controlled teams will be available (meaning any coach who was in that world could of applied to any of those teams and one of them could of gotten that job even if I had a better resume than anyone there if I was a returning coach).

Only after job period has ended and the season rolled over can new coaches get the scraps that the existing coaches didn't want.

Budd, if you are in naismith I'll show you.  Go check out Wittenburg in DIII north coast conference.  There is no coach listed.  However, if you go to the job applications page, they are not listed, because someone has already reserved them.  Therefore nobody else can apply.

And Gillipie, I can't prove it right now, but I'm pretty sure I have applied to a job like any current coach currently in a world would do, when I had a resume but not currently in that world.  I believe I did it when I rejoined DII knight.  

But I'll back off now.  If people don't  believe me that this is how the game is programmed, or I didn't explain it well, then I'm sorry.  And if people just disagree that it's a problem that's fine, I've stated my case, and won't argue it anymore.

Posted by buddhagamer on 1/21/2016 6:10:00 PM (view original):
In your example Dan had a choice, he could of applied to Arizona State at the start of the present season (he had a decision and opted not to apply because he thought it was in *his* best interest to stay at Auburn.  You could only reserve the team after Dan had passed even if you had a better resume (but at worse you were qualified to coach Arizona State).

The question would be if Dan wasn't qualified to apply but after the conclusion of the present season, he felt that he would of been (which is moot due to the fact at the time you reserved the team, you were qualified and he was not).

Yep, this.

Posted by dan2044 on 1/21/2016 8:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by buddhagamer on 1/21/2016 6:17:00 PM (view original):
Naismith is in jobs period right now and I can not reserve any team nor can I apply for any jobs at all (it is exclusive to coaches who presently coach in Naismith).  At the end of the job period only SIM controlled teams will be available (meaning any coach who was in that world could of applied to any of those teams and one of them could of gotten that job even if I had a better resume than anyone there if I was a returning coach).

Only after job period has ended and the season rolled over can new coaches get the scraps that the existing coaches didn't want.

Budd, if you are in naismith I'll show you.  Go check out Wittenburg in DIII north coast conference.  There is no coach listed.  However, if you go to the job applications page, they are not listed, because someone has already reserved them.  Therefore nobody else can apply.

And Gillipie, I can't prove it right now, but I'm pretty sure I have applied to a job like any current coach currently in a world would do, when I had a resume but not currently in that world.  I believe I did it when I rejoined DII knight.  

But I'll back off now.  If people don't  believe me that this is how the game is programmed, or I didn't explain it well, then I'm sorry.  And if people just disagree that it's a problem that's fine, I've stated my case, and won't argue it anymore.

I can't see naismith since its in Jobs and have never played there but in any other worlds yes I understand what you are saying.  You are objecting to WIS' model of first come first serve for new/returning owners for SIM controlled teams and for some reason you think you as an existing owner should be able to apply as well (assuming that for some reason you should get the job over them).

So how do you propose that the new losing owner apply for the job you just took away from him.  Its job period and like I told you I can't *apply* to anything (I can only reserve and <Reserve> is only available outside of jobs).  Or are you suggesting that new/returning owners get 1 shot and only 1 shot at getting a team (after paying their $$$).

If you do allow them to apply, then I can tell you there will be a whole pile of existing HD users that will complain bitterly the first time a returning owner cherry picks a newly open D1 A+ baseline school just because they were allowed to apply during jobs when they didn't even have a coaching job in that world this season.

And yes if you previously played in that world you can "apply" for a returning job but you can only do so *after" rollover (where I believe it is again first come first serve but I could be mistaken that this works like the regular job period).  You certainly wouldn't be allowed to participate in the normal job period (otherwise returning owners could cherry pick teams that became available).

My question to you was why didn't you apply to Wittenburg at the beginning of the season instead of waiting and allowing said user to reserve it afterwards.

We are just pointing out the other issues (more serious ones IMO) that would arise by your suggestion that WIS change how new/returning owners can actually get back into the game and why if they did as you ask it would even dilute the already slow trickle of incoming owners versus the flood of departing ones.

Dan : your point is valid. This is something we ought to look at. I understand where you are coming from, and what you try to tell us. Maybe it's something that can be fixed, it dépends on what's your priority is. If it's fairness : I am on your side. If it's getting as many new owners as possible, which is probably WIS idea, then I understand their point.

I still don't think you are understanding the situation.  What I'm objecting to is new coaches being allowed to reserve a team BEFORE job applications start, which doesn't allow current coaches to even apply.

My suggestion is simple.  New coaches can have DIII team they want that is still available after the job application period.  And returning coaches could either apply during the job application period like everyone else to whatever they qualify for, or pick any team still available after the world roll over.

Posted by zorzii on 1/21/2016 9:21:00 PM (view original):
Dan : your point is valid. This is something we ought to look at. I understand where you are coming from, and what you try to tell us. Maybe it's something that can be fixed, it dépends on what's your priority is. If it's fairness : I am on your side. If it's getting as many new owners as possible, which is probably WIS idea, then I understand their point.

I'm curious why you think why the way things work its unfair to the existing player base?  I think if anything the existing player has the best advantage (having to only put their resume against existing coaches).

Zorzii, if at the end of the day, WIS said they wanted to keep it the way it is because they want to grab the new coaches when they can and not make them wait, I can accept that.  But they would still have to admit that the current way it's done is just not logical, which was my point to begin with.

Posted by dan2044 on 1/21/2016 9:24:00 PM (view original):
I still don't think you are understanding the situation.  What I'm objecting to is new coaches being allowed to reserve a team BEFORE job applications start, which doesn't allow current coaches to even apply.

My suggestion is simple.  New coaches can have DIII team they want that is still available after the job application period.  And returning coaches could either apply during the job application period like everyone else to whatever they qualify for, or pick any team still available after the world roll over.

I understand the situation perfectly and all I'm saying is that if WIS were to allow this there would be the following results:

1.  The rate of new users (defined as not having any record in that world) would plummet.  Who wants to pay $$$ to reserve a team that they might not get?  If they are informed they didn't get it they have a short window to get something else (and possibly get blocked yet again).  If they fail to get anything, they can go back and reserve another team and go back to the beginning yet again...  yeah I'm sticking around for that.

2.  Allowing new/returning owners the ability to *apply* to other teams during job period allows for them to *cherry pick* great teams, win NCG and then disappear to just come back yet again.  Great for existing owners who play 50+ seasons tolling at lower school waiting for a opening and then watching as some old coach who hasn't been around for 20+ seasons grab it and win.

3.  How would you resolve if two new coaches pick the exact same team?  Who wins and who scrambles around to find a new team?

All I'm asking is for you to consider how you would resolve these in a fair and reasonable manner to make what you propose a logical one that you claim it to be.

Posted by buddhagamer on 1/21/2016 9:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dan2044 on 1/21/2016 9:24:00 PM (view original):
I still don't think you are understanding the situation.  What I'm objecting to is new coaches being allowed to reserve a team BEFORE job applications start, which doesn't allow current coaches to even apply.

My suggestion is simple.  New coaches can have DIII team they want that is still available after the job application period.  And returning coaches could either apply during the job application period like everyone else to whatever they qualify for, or pick any team still available after the world roll over.

I understand the situation perfectly and all I'm saying is that if WIS were to allow this there would be the following results:

1.  The rate of new users (defined as not having any record in that world) would plummet.  Who wants to pay $$$ to reserve a team that they might not get?  If they are informed they didn't get it they have a short window to get something else (and possibly get blocked yet again).  If they fail to get anything, they can go back and reserve another team and go back to the beginning yet again...  yeah I'm sticking around for that.

2.  Allowing new/returning owners the ability to *apply* to other teams during job period allows for them to *cherry pick* great teams, win NCG and then disappear to just come back yet again.  Great for existing owners who play 50+ seasons tolling at lower school waiting for a opening and then watching as some old coach who hasn't been around for 20+ seasons grab it and win.

3.  How would you resolve if two new coaches pick the exact same team?  Who wins and who scrambles around to find a new team?

All I'm asking is for you to consider how you would resolve these in a fair and reasonable manner to make what you propose a logical one that you claim it to be.

1.  I could be wrong, but I think most new users (which is what we are talking about when we are saying we dont want to discourage anyone) join the first world that's starting after they join.  They don't look at every world for the best available school.  And if we say that everyone can just reserve a team, what's the point of even having the day and a half to sign up for new coaches before recruiting starts, after all, everyone should have already chosen the team they want.

2. If the coach has the best resume, it's  because they earned it, and should get a choice of schools they want.  And if you really think this will be a common issue it won't, because if coaches really leave a school multiple times after 1 season, it will hurt their resume, and they will no longer be hired at the school if anybody else applies.  (and in your scenario, the schools seem worth multiple coaches applying.

3. I'm not really sure what you are talking about.  If it's new coaches, then it's  first come first serve during signups.  For returning coaches, they have a resume, and like any other time 2 coaches apply for the same job, best resume wins, and the worse resume has to find another school.

tark rolls in a few days, ill see on an idle id, if i can apply during jobs.