Posted by oldresorter on 6/23/2010 8:56:00 AM (view original):
hughes are you another alias for a in the b & argueness?  before you answer, note how you both use CAPITAL letters to PROVE a point - LOL - many think you are seble's wife or girl friend

So speed has to have a quickness component to it in HD terms.  The quickest big is going to have to be in the 60s, maybe 70s.  The top D1 centers start around 30-40 spd.  Add in 10 points for growth that seems about right.

Speed of 50th best player at the position in Allen.

C = 30, PF = 44, SF = 53, SG = 62, PG = 77.  These numbers seem pretty realistic to me.  The top guards are quicker than the top big men....right?

Reb of 50th best player at the position:
C = 80, PF = 64, SF = 46, SG = 26, PG = 15

What's the issue? 

You think HS Rajon Rando should outrebound HS Dwight Howard?   Not happening.   Maybe he can outrebound a soft SF, or even PF like Rasheed Wallace, but not a top 50 center. 

The top PG rebounding is 37 and SG is 50.  Those are superior rebounding numbers for guards, who wil lead their positions in rebounding, but guards with 80 rebounding cannot exist, because Dwight Howard's or '95 Shaq or or '92 Hakeem can only go to 100, and they need to DOMINATE Rando on the boards, so 6'2" PG's cannot have rebounding ratings above about 50-55, so there is an acceptable gap.
 

Posted by reinsel on 6/23/2010 1:40:00 PM (view original):

So speed has to have a quickness component to it in HD terms.  The quickest big is going to have to be in the 60s, maybe 70s.  The top D1 centers start around 30-40 spd.  Add in 10 points for growth that seems about right.

Speed of 50th best player at the position in Allen.

C = 30, PF = 44, SF = 53, SG = 62, PG = 77.  These numbers seem pretty realistic to me.  The top guards are quicker than the top big men....right?

Reb of 50th best player at the position:
C = 80, PF = 64, SF = 46, SG = 26, PG = 15

What's the issue? 

You think HS Rajon Rando should outrebound HS Dwight Howard?   Not happening.   Maybe he can outrebound a soft SF, or even PF like Rasheed Wallace, but not a top 50 center. 

The top PG rebounding is 37 and SG is 50.  Those are superior rebounding numbers for guards, who wil lead their positions in rebounding, but guards with 80 rebounding cannot exist, because Dwight Howard's or '95 Shaq or or '92 Hakeem can only go to 100, and they need to DOMINATE Rando on the boards, so 6'2" PG's cannot have rebounding ratings above about 50-55, so there is an acceptable gap.
 

I'm not advocating for guards with 70 rebounding, I'm advocating for more of them in the 30's, 40's, and 50's  There are hardly any in the latter 2 categories.  That said, the rebounding issue is fine, it's off, but I'm not overly concerned with it messing up the engine..

On the OTHER hand....

Spd Issue:
and I've outlined it pretty extensively as far as the SPD issue goes.  Defending it with a SINGLE example(From D-I, not D-II or DIII)  like that is as silly as people complaining about single games as examples of how the engine is broken....

They've essentially nerfed SPD in big men to the point where HD is full of Ostertags.  There aren't enough fast VIABLE big men(between 35-55 SPD) period(and again, I've given plenty of examples of this).  I have thoroughly enjoyed HD, but if the engine makers really think that's how basketball is played, then it's not a "simulation" I  any longer want to be a part of.

Posted by hughesjr on 6/23/2010 8:04:00 AM (view original):

Posted by grantduck on 6/23/2010 5:58:00 AM (view original):

Posted by isack24 on 6/21/2010 7:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by grantduck on 6/21/2010 7:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by arssanguinus on 6/21/2010 7:19:00 PM (view original):
If he was actually addressing the real argument, agreed, he would have nailed it.  However, it sort of addresses a completely different argument.  .3 seconds doesn't sound like much, but in basketball terms it means quite a bit.

.3 seconds might be great, but the difference in HD between a 90 spd and a 25 spd is not .3 seconds.

OK, but that's straight-ahead speed.  Speed here measures quckness, and no, there are not a lot of big men who are as quick as most high-level D1 guards.

I agree, they are not AS quick, but they are closer than the new engine has made them.  Big men have essentially all been turned into Greg Ostertags.  As much as I've enjoyed HD and enjoy the new engine, i just can't play in a world full of Ostertags.

You have absolutely NO EVIDENCE that a speed 20 or 50 is Ostertag like.

Until someone with knowledge of the new engine coding tells you what Speed means in this engine, any pronouncements you make about what X speed means to the game is purely conjecture.

You may be absolutely correct about this ... or you maybe be off in left field.

If your numbers are correct, then the only thing you know for sure is that the speed attribute for bigs is less with new recruit generation.

Posted by hughesjr on 6/23/2010 4:55:00 PM (view original):
Grant, did you get the part where Speed is not how fast you can run the 50 yard dash, but it is instead Quickness?

Posted by isack24 on 6/23/2010 4:31:00 PM (view original):
I disgaree completely that there are plenty of guards outrebounding bigs in college.  There are guards who track down rebounds, guards who come off the weak side rebounds, etc.  But there aren't a lot of guards who could match up in the post, turn, and get a rebound over a 6'7" PF.

THe fact that he has ten rebounds means he got them by battling their center and Power forward?

Posted by grantduck on 6/23/2010 5:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by isack24 on 6/23/2010 4:31:00 PM (view original):
I disgaree completely that there are plenty of guards outrebounding bigs in college.  There are guards who track down rebounds, guards who come off the weak side rebounds, etc.  But there aren't a lot of guards who could match up in the post, turn, and get a rebound over a 6'7" PF.

Yes there are, ESPECIALLY in college.  Apparently you didn't watch the NCAA tournament this year, you could have watched either of these teams have guards go straight up against bigs and get rebounds over them.   Durrell Summer, 6ft 4 in guard, with 10 rebounds, Veasley and Nored, smaller guards, combine for 11 rebounds.   Need more examples?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/ncaa/men/gameflash/2010/04/03/63133_boxscore.html


It's totally reasonable to expect that there should be a decent # of guards with say 40-65 ath and 30-45 RBD.   

Posted by isack24 on 6/23/2010 6:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by grantduck on 6/23/2010 5:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by isack24 on 6/23/2010 4:31:00 PM (view original):
I disgaree completely that there are plenty of guards outrebounding bigs in college.  There are guards who track down rebounds, guards who come off the weak side rebounds, etc.  But there aren't a lot of guards who could match up in the post, turn, and get a rebound over a 6'7" PF.

Yes there are, ESPECIALLY in college.  Apparently you didn't watch the NCAA tournament this year, you could have watched either of these teams have guards go straight up against bigs and get rebounds over them.   Durrell Summer, 6ft 4 in guard, with 10 rebounds, Veasley and Nored, smaller guards, combine for 11 rebounds.   Need more examples?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/ncaa/men/gameflash/2010/04/03/63133_boxscore.html


It's totally reasonable to expect that there should be a decent # of guards with say 40-65 ath and 30-45 RBD.   

I wached plenty.  Nored was never matched up on bigs.  He would sneak in and grab boards in a crowd, I'll give you that, but he wasn't boxing out bigger players.

Summers was a top-twenty player in his class.  That's fine if you want to argue there should be a few guys with high ath/30+ reb, but he doesn't fit with your "decent # of guards" theory, he was an elite player.

For what it's worth, there are 24 D1 PG/SG newly-created in Wooden that have 60 ath/30 reb.