Seriously? 72 fouls/95FT Topic

slicknick777
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Posted by isack24 on 6/24/2010 9:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by slicknick777 on 6/24/2010 9:15:00 PM (view original):
The only problem I have with the final minute is Dowling fouling 3 times in the backcourt.  That's not going to happen in real life.  The rest of the pbp seems fine to me.  And the difference in IQs played a huge factor.  I wouldn't have chosen uptempo against a team who you know is going to be playing a fast tempo with the horrible IQs against a team with 5 seniors and good IQs.  
Both teams ran normal.

Only in the final minute when I was losing by a bunch did I go uptempo, which, coincidentally, worked pretty well.
You are right.  That is my mistake.
6/25/2010 1:31 AM
emy1013
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Hughes, I know we've butted heads a time or two (well, mostly me throwing out a few random insults) and you usually produce a pretty convincing argument (although as Dalter said, your arguments/rationales seems to ALWAYS be pro-WIS), but I think you're off base on this one.  The real life "examples" that you are using for comparisons really aren't that close.  You can try to spin this result anyway that you like, but the fact remains that it was ridiculous.  Could it have happened?  Well, I'd say the odds of an ending like that happening in a real game are about the same as me getting struck by lightning as I stand in line to cash in my winning Powerball ticket................
6/25/2010 2:31 AM
emy1013
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Posted by breum on 6/24/2010 3:38:00 PM (view original):
Isack, you're arguing with guys that don't understand the way the game works.  Its a waste of your time.  Yes, this is a ridiculous result. 
Then again, this sums it up pretty well also.
6/25/2010 2:31 AM
dalter
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Posted by isack24 on 6/25/2010 12:29:00 AM (view original):
You can't cite real life stats to prove why the engine is working properly and then, when you can't find stats to support your position, claim that because teams don't play in real life the way they do in HD, real life examples don't matter.

You can't have it both ways.
QFT.
6/25/2010 6:58 AM
alblack56
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I asked WIS about this game.   They said that 9 of Holy Family's fouls were in the final minute.  Also, Dowling pressed with a poor defensive team "which is never a good idea."
6/25/2010 8:10 AM
brrexkl
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  We are back to what COULD happen in Real Life.  If a team CONTINUED to press (with a poor defensive team) and was fouling like mad in the Back Court, that would be an additional (9 Fouls X 3 Seconds to get to Half Court without Pressure) 27 Seconds of Game Clock not used.  This is how 87 Seconds (or 93, if you like) turns into 60.

  Why haven't we seen 2 Teams score 30 in a Minute in RL?  Because no Coach has been stupid enough to put REAL PLAYERS in that situation... had they I doubt they would be coaching for long.

  That's like not understanding why your guy only hit 15 of his 70 3 Point Attempts in a game.  Who cares what % he hit, you can't validate that!  Who has EVER shot 70 3's in a Single Game?  HOWEVER, then Engine ALLOWS us to set these situations up.

  The results are as they are because the ENGINE did what it was told, and added some Lucky Shooting into the situation.  I'm not really sure how that is the Engines fault.  This outcome is Rare and Unusual, indeed.  Won't deny that (it's also what I like about it.)  However, it is only the Product of what the 2 Coaches told the Sim to do.  9 Freaking Fouls in 1 Minute?  I find that almost as insane as the 30 Points... but that makes sense considering that is how the 30 Points occured so quickly.
6/25/2010 10:28 AM
isack24
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Also important to note that even with the 30 points in the final minute, there were also: 1 TO, 7 missed FTs, and 3 missed FGA, and none of those missed shots led to baskets on the same possession.  It could have easily been much more than 30 points.

Also funny that there was about a 0:20 gap where no one scored, so all of the scoring was done in a 0:40 period.  I understand that's not how it works, just thought it was funny.

I understand that it could possibly happen; like dalter said, anything could happen.  But it never took more than :01 for me to foul, even off missed shots, which I think is unrealistic.  The four fouls in the backcourt have nothing to do with coach settings, it has to do with the engine not acocunting for what would happen - no one would ever do that.  You blame the coach, but the coach doesn't have a don't-foul-in-the-backcourt setting.  I blame the engine.
6/25/2010 11:17 AM
hughesjr
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Posted by isack24 on 6/25/2010 11:17:00 AM (view original):
Also important to note that even with the 30 points in the final minute, there were also: 1 TO, 7 missed FTs, and 3 missed FGA, and none of those missed shots led to baskets on the same possession.  It could have easily been much more than 30 points.

Also funny that there was about a 0:20 gap where no one scored, so all of the scoring was done in a 0:40 period.  I understand that's not how it works, just thought it was funny.

I understand that it could possibly happen; like dalter said, anything could happen.  But it never took more than :01 for me to foul, even off missed shots, which I think is unrealistic.  The four fouls in the backcourt have nothing to do with coach settings, it has to do with the engine not acocunting for what would happen - no one would ever do that.  You blame the coach, but the coach doesn't have a don't-foul-in-the-backcourt setting.  I blame the engine.
The coach absolutely does have an option to not play FCP  when winning by X with Y minutes left.

If you are winning and still pressing with 1 minute left ... well, I'll let you decide what that means.

Why do you think they give you the option to change your defensive and offensive sets and tempo if you are winning or losing.

I would be PI$$ED if the engine changed my defense when I specifically set something that I wanted to run at the end of the game.
6/25/2010 1:54 PM
hughesjr
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So, I take it what you all want is for them to change the engine so that if you choose to play an offense and defense that your team is not suited for, they should just either go ahead and play as if your team was really suited for that set ... andor just substitute a different set that fits your players more randomly throughout the game, because "nobody would do that"?

Or should they play the sets that you call with the players that you put in?
6/25/2010 1:57 PM
isack24
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No, I want the engine to know that even if you're pressing, you absolutely don't foul in the backcourt up 10 with under a minute to play. 

You totally contradicted yourself anyway.  You're saying that the coach can pick a defense that he hasn't practiced, but then say it's ridiculous that the engine would do it for you.  The point is that either way, if you run press, you have to change to a defense you don't practice to avoid fouling in the backcourt.  That's beyond stupid.  It's another reason not to allow press as a base defense, but if they do, you can't just have it go stupid in the final minute of a game.

Everything you say contradicts something else that you've said in an effort to defend HD. 

So it makes sense for the players to know to shoot more threes when playing against a (-) defense because that makes sense in real life, but it's too much to expect the engine to program "no fouling in the backcourt up 10 under a minute no matter what defense I'm playing?"

I don't always agree with dalter, but at least eh's consistent.
6/25/2010 2:35 PM
hughesjr
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Why does it have to be a defense he hasn't practiced?

How many college basketball teams do you know that only practice and play a FCP?

You have the option to practice press and Zone (Man).  Then you can play Halfcourt Press - Zone(Man), Full Court Press, or Zone(Man) whenever you want.

6/25/2010 2:54 PM
isack24
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I know you're not comparing HD to real life

Coaches don't have allotted minutes to spend on certain things in real life.  Practice plans aren't the same in real life.  Player progression isn't the same. 

6/25/2010 2:59 PM
dalter
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Posted by isack24 on 6/25/2010 2:35:00 PM (view original):
No, I want the engine to know that even if you're pressing, you absolutely don't foul in the backcourt up 10 with under a minute to play. 

You totally contradicted yourself anyway.  You're saying that the coach can pick a defense that he hasn't practiced, but then say it's ridiculous that the engine would do it for you.  The point is that either way, if you run press, you have to change to a defense you don't practice to avoid fouling in the backcourt.  That's beyond stupid.  It's another reason not to allow press as a base defense, but if they do, you can't just have it go stupid in the final minute of a game.

Everything you say contradicts something else that you've said in an effort to defend HD. 

So it makes sense for the players to know to shoot more threes when playing against a (-) defense because that makes sense in real life, but it's too much to expect the engine to program "no fouling in the backcourt up 10 under a minute no matter what defense I'm playing?"

I don't always agree with dalter, but at least eh's consistent.
YEAH!

Wait a second ...
6/25/2010 3:33 PM
brrexkl
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 Umm, Coaches DO have allotted minutes.  They are not allow to exceed a certain time limit for College Practices.  One of the hardest things about being a Coach is Organizing your Practices, as you have to fit a ton of stuff in a small window of time.

  Some days they work Press, other days the Base Defense for their team.  How many of us take the time to go 20 Games with 20 Minutes in Zone, then take away some Individual or Team time to put 20 in Press so our Last 2 Minutes improves if behind?  We set the 1 O and 1 D we want to use, and forget it.  That doesn't really happen in real life.  Some days you might not even work on Team Defense, instead making it an Individual Drills day.

  Real Life is MUCH different than the Practice Plan concept we use here.  BUT, nothing keeps you from going in every few days and changing things up to hit more areas.
6/25/2010 3:56 PM
isack24
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Well the whole thing is irrelevant.  It's not the press itself that caused backcourt fouls, it's the stupid people fouling.  The engine should absolutely account for how much time is left and whether anyone would EVER get close enough to foul in the backcourt up ten with under a minute.
6/25/2010 4:04 PM
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Seriously? 72 fouls/95FT Topic
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