Posted by brrexkl on 6/27/2010 5:08:00 AM (view original):
Was the Fouling Team in the Press?  If so, the way to avoid that would be by not running the Press. 

Now, if you are told to press... what are you going to do?  Stand there and let the guy go by you, or make a play on the ball?  The Coach said Press... so the kid Pressed, badly, and fouled.  The reason no one does this in real life is NO ONE PRESSES WITH THE LEAD IN REAL LIFE.  So no one has the chance IN RL to reach in the back court.

Again, those 4 Fouls fall on whoever had their team in the Press (lead or no lead).  Game Plan Error.

No.

dalter, you are rapidly losing credibility...

Posted by dalter on 6/27/2010 8:18:00 AM (view original):

Posted by brrexkl on 6/27/2010 5:08:00 AM (view original):
Was the Fouling Team in the Press?  If so, the way to avoid that would be by not running the Press. 

Now, if you are told to press... what are you going to do?  Stand there and let the guy go by you, or make a play on the ball?  The Coach said Press... so the kid Pressed, badly, and fouled.  The reason no one does this in real life is NO ONE PRESSES WITH THE LEAD IN REAL LIFE.  So no one has the chance IN RL to reach in the back court.

Again, those 4 Fouls fall on whoever had their team in the Press (lead or no lead).  Game Plan Error.

No.

I had the exact same reaction.

  You think my Statement is False, Isack?  Please explain why.
 
  Do those 4 Fouls in 90 Seconds happen (in the Back Court) with M2M or Zone?  No. 
  Who Chooses which Defense to run?  The Coach.
  Who made his Players Press with a Lead, leading to the Fouls?  The Coach.
  Did those Fouls result in FTs with no time running off the clock, leading to a major point scoring spree in 90 Seconds?  Yes. (Along with hot shooting by the team fouling).

  It all comes back to ONE THING.  If the Coach CHOOSES not to Press with the Lead Late in the Game, this entire scenario that you seem to be calling 'impossible' doesn't happen.  It all goes back to the ENGINE follow the Coach's Orders.  The reason we can not cite Real Life Examples is because no Coach would ALLOW his TEAM to do what the Coach here ORDERED his Team to do.

  Bottom line, with no possible way around it, is this.... Game Plan Failure.

I think your statements show a refusal to comprehend common sense.

There is no "four corners" offense, but teams go into four corners at the end of the game when winning.  Why?  Because the engine knows that no team is going to attack the basket when it can just run out the clock.  And because there isn't an actual coach to tell them to go into a stall offense, the engine does it for us.  This is no different.  There is no coach to say, "whatever you do, don't foul."  The engine should know that no team would ever foul there.  We shouldn't have to switch to a base defense that we've never played.  We should just have to know that the engine will decrease defensive intensity, much like the stall offense it plays for us.

Look, we can agree to disagree.  If you think this is an appropriate result, fine.  I don't, and nothing you have said or will say is going to change my mind, especially if you're sticking with what you wrote above.

That said, this is another reason why fb/press should be eliminated from the list of base defenses.  And it should happen soon.                    

  Aha!  Now we ALMOST agree!  "We should just have to know that the engine will decreae defensive intensity, much like the stall offense it plays for us".

  You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!  The Engine SHOULD do that.  However, we know the Engine DOESN'T do that.  SO, UNTIL the Engine gets that Change for Final Minutes on Defense, we have to PLAY TO THE ENGINE.

  So, UNTIL this Change to the Engine occurs (have you brought this to the Attention of WIS?  Should be an easy thing to toss in, they may even be able to make it part of the new Release, which as we play it is still being tweaked) THIS IS GAME PLANNING FAILURE.

  You are right as to What Should Happen.  That ISN'T what happens.  This has been KNOWN for some time (no ones every mentioned there Press magically stopping with a late lead before, have they?  So no reason to think that it would.)  Last Time, very simple:  Coach Game Plan Failure.

Practicing a defense just for the final minute would be a practice plan failure. 

Playing a defense you don't practice is a coach game plan failure.

So what is the coach supposed to do?

Posted by isack24 on 6/27/2010 3:04:00 PM (view original):
Practicing a defense just for the final minute would be a practice plan failure. 

Playing a defense you don't practice is a coach game plan failure.

So what is the coach supposed to do?

+1

Running a defense you don't practice because the engine can't recognize end of game situations is silly. If you run a no-practice defense, you'll commit fewer fouls (until WIS tones down the 30-40 fouls per game that press teams commit) but be far more likely to surrender a basket. The average teams makes about 65% of FTs, 45% of FGs, and 33% of 3s, and rebounds 1/3 of their missed shots. If you commit 4 fouls on consecutive possessions, you'll surrender 5-6 points. If you run man with F IQs, you'll likely generate almost no turnovers and surrender open shots with mediocre defenders. I'll take my chances with fouling on press versus letting the other team's top 3 pt shooters get open looks against an unpracticed defense.

Well, I don't think you should only have to have offensive and defensive sets for part of the game.  That is silly.  Sure, it it much easier to pick and practice only one defensive or offensive set. 

If you want to do that, it is your choice.

Why it fair that they tone down the press if you are ahead, but that they don't allow a zone team to automatically run the press to create turnovers if they are behind and it starts to get late?

They should not do one of those if they are not going to do the other.

A coach could, if they wanted, practice Press and Zone ... they could play Zone when they are ahead late and they could press when they are behind late.  They could also play 2-3 zone, 3-2 Zone,  FCP or zone/half court press whenever they wanted.

Why should the game alter your team at the end of the game and give you a pass when you haven't properly practiced and prepared your team with the ability to run the sets that would work in that situation?

I know, I know, hughes STFU ... you do not have the experience to talk about stuff like this ... I was playing this game when you were a glint in your momma's eye.  You can't practice more than one Defense or Offense in HD ... that is just not how it is done son.  Can't be done ... heresy that's what you're talking.   The church of the schooled HD coaches will not allow this talk here.  Be gone hughes, you wanker.

If you'd bother to do an iota of research before opening your self-serving mouth, you'd see that I practice multiple sets with several teams. I have not seen one person in this thread suggest that practicing multiple sets is ridiculous, crazy, unconventional or even uncommon.

But it had been suggested that you should practice a different set simply to play it in the last minute of a game when you're winning, and this is ludicrous for a multitude of reasons that have already been enumerated previously. It was that idea that drew such a negative response.

And your analogy of "they don't allow the zone team to automatically run the press ... if they are behind" is an epic fail. That's an example of completely changing defensive sets. What isack suggested was merely a less aggressive version of the set you're already playing, incorporating just a tiny bit of common sense into the engine -- just as common sense is incorporated when you're on offense. Even fastbreak teams go into the four corners in the final minute, there's no reason a similar bit of basic logic shouldn't be applied on defense.

Come on ... you are either running the FCP or you aren't.  There is no FCP where but don't really FCP.

Sure they can dumb down the defense at the end of the game ... I have no problem with them doing it.  But I don't think you should expect it, especially since it is coachable. 

My suggestion is that if you want to FCP, you should also practice another defense because the FCP is not as well suited for some situations as other defenses.  It just isn't well rounded.  You might need another defense for the end of the game if you are winning.  Just like you might need a press if you are losing and you only practiced zone.

Don't most real teams practice some kind of press to run if they fall behind.  Don't most real teams have the ability to run Zone and M2M in different situations?

All I am saying is, there is more than one way to play this game.  Am I tired of you, dalter, thinking you are the king of this game.  As I said before, I will own you at this game at some point.

Posted by dalter on 6/27/2010 5:32:00 PM:
If you'd bother to do an iota of research before opening your self-serving mouth, you'd see that I practice multiple sets with several teams. I have not seen one person in this thread suggest that practicing multiple sets is ridiculous, crazy, unconventional or even uncommon.

But it had been suggested that you should practice a different set simply to play it in the last minute of a game when you're winning

No, dalter, it wasn't. It was suggested that it if you run the press, you shouldn't be so stupid as to get caught with your shorts down in game situations the press can't handle.

Your antipathy towards hughes is causing you to lose your ****. Take a deep breath and a step back.

This post has gotten a life of its own. 7 pages??? Start a new topic guys.

Posted by antonsirius on 6/27/2010 6:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dalter on 6/27/2010 5:32:00 PM:
If you'd bother to do an iota of research before opening your self-serving mouth, you'd see that I practice multiple sets with several teams. I have not seen one person in this thread suggest that practicing multiple sets is ridiculous, crazy, unconventional or even uncommon.

But it had been suggested that you should practice a different set simply to play it in the last minute of a game when you're winning

No, dalter, it wasn't. It was suggested that it if you run the press, you shouldn't be so stupid as to get caught with your shorts down in game situations the press can't handle.

Your antipathy towards hughes is causing you to lose your ****. Take a deep breath and a step back.

Um, no.

Brexxkl said: "  If you MAINLY run Press for your Defense, would you not want a 'fall back' defense for when you have a Late Lead?  The other options seem to be 'Run Defense with No IQ' which seems like it would be ripe to allow a Late Rally... or Practice Secondary Defense, which means slightly less talented players."

Maybe it's your antipathy towards dalter that is causing you to lose you ****.