Posted by tmacfan12 on 7/8/2010 11:14:00 PM (view original):
The backlash is because Lebron is Cleveland, or at least he was. The city just lost their identity and the one guy who brought attention to their city and gave them a chance at a championship. The way Lebron went about this was terrible. He just went on national television and ripped out the hearts of cleveland fans. This really sucks for them.

bill simmons

Posted by pitino27 on 7/9/2010 12:27:00 AM (view original):
I don't think that's what Boston did when they acquired Garnett and Allen. Obviously this is a different scenario, but no I don't think so. They still have to put players around those three guys and I am actually quite intrigued to see who they will get now. I think situations like this one are good for the game essentially because it generates a lot of hype. Also, Dave that's an interesting theory on Lebron being grounded, but I think in some ways, as you said, he is. When asked about how he felt this would do to his relationship to the city of Cleveland and all the hate for him spawning he basically staed that he only cared about his relationship with God and with his family. I completely respect that. I mean in general, and of course a much smaller scale, aren't we all the same way. We are all human and to err is human.

Hey, one last thing.  Don't forget who helped orchestrate the trade that sent Garnett to Boston.  The name Kevin McHale ring a bell?  Remember him, the guy who played his whole career for Boston and was Minnesota's GM at the time?  I seem to recall a lot of people thinking there was a bit of shadiness in that deal, in the fact that McHale appeared to be "helping" his old team more than his current one.  And yes, I consider Boston's title "bought" also, because of that.  Of course, the Lakers got the steal of the decade with the Pau Gasol trade, so I guess it all kind of evens out, at least for the marquee franchises.

Actually, between all of these trades, free agent signings, claims of corrupt refs, etc., the NBA is starting to resemble professional wrestling more and more, in that a lot of stuff looks "set up" to the average fan.  Just one more reason to like college more than pro..........

Dcy I don't this notion that because he went to Miami with D Wade and Bosh if he wins a title it's not earned. YOu still have to win games, just because you have the best big 3 doesn't mean you are guaranteed a title. People need to realize the gap between a great player like LeBron, Kobe and D Wade and a really good player like Deron Williams or Carmelo Anthony is actually pretty small. I remember having an argument back in 2006 saying that Kobe wasn't actually that much better than Paul Pierce but the perception was Kobe was light years ahead of him, of course the guy I was arguing with disagreed with me and then 2 years later in the NBA Finals Pierce if he didn't outplay Kobe he at the very least cancelled him out. Which speaks to my point that the gap between the great and very good is a small one. Which means if the right players don't surround those 3 the championships won't be easy to come by because when you think about how good Durant is and will be, and how good Westbrook can be and how good Serge Ibaka can be and then the solid rotation players like Jeff Green, James Harden and Sefalosha, OKC will have the star talent and supporting cast to contend with the Heat for the next few years. There are other teams like Portland who have guys who are only slightly below the level of those 3 or at least 2 of the 3 like Brandon Roy and LeMarcus Aldridge on the Blazers soon to be Derrick Rose and Carlos Boozer on the Bulls. Now if those teams are much deeper then the Heat and the top 2 players mostly cancel out 2 of the big 3 then these teams will be able to seriously challenge Miami.

I started rambling a bit there but the point I'm getting at is these 3 don't guarantee a championship at all, there is a lot of talent in the NBA and 3 guys aren't going to be good enough to win without good role players, and any title they win will be earned. Was LeBron supposed to stay in Cleveland where their cap situation was such that made it nearly impossible to make changes to contend for a title just so people would think he's loyal? He wants to win championships, he realized that wasn't happening Cleveland and he saw a chance to make that happen.

I get the backlash about the spectacle LeBron created but hating on him for going to Miami and taking less money because he wants to win a title is a bad reason to dislike him. Like Herm Edwards said "You play to win the game" and LeBron clearly wants to win more then he wants to make as much as possible.

Posted by dcy0827 on 7/9/2010 12:54:00 AM (view original):

Posted by pitino27 on 7/9/2010 12:27:00 AM (view original):
I don't think that's what Boston did when they acquired Garnett and Allen. Obviously this is a different scenario, but no I don't think so. They still have to put players around those three guys and I am actually quite intrigued to see who they will get now. I think situations like this one are good for the game essentially because it generates a lot of hype. Also, Dave that's an interesting theory on Lebron being grounded, but I think in some ways, as you said, he is. When asked about how he felt this would do to his relationship to the city of Cleveland and all the hate for him spawning he basically staed that he only cared about his relationship with God and with his family. I completely respect that. I mean in general, and of course a much smaller scale, aren't we all the same way. We are all human and to err is human.

Hey, one last thing.  Don't forget who helped orchestrate the trade that sent Garnett to Boston.  The name Kevin McHale ring a bell?  Remember him, the guy who played his whole career for Boston and was Minnesota's GM at the time?  I seem to recall a lot of people thinking there was a bit of shadiness in that deal, in the fact that McHale appeared to be "helping" his old team more than his current one.  And yes, I consider Boston's title "bought" also, because of that.  Of course, the Lakers got the steal of the decade with the Pau Gasol trade, so I guess it all kind of evens out, at least for the marquee franchises.

Actually, between all of these trades, free agent signings, claims of corrupt refs, etc., the NBA is starting to resemble professional wrestling more and more, in that a lot of stuff looks "set up" to the average fan.  Just one more reason to like college more than pro..........

People need to stop saying that the Lakers got some amazing steal in the Pau Gasol trade, go check Marc Gasol's #s from the last 2 seasons, look at his age and salary and tell me the Grizzlies got robbed in that trade. Marc could potentially end up better than Pau, and the Grizzlies got a ton of cap space which has put them in a position where they may actually be a consistent playoff team.

Posted by dcy0827 on 7/9/2010 12:17:00 AM (view original):
If they win a title, won't it seem "cheap" though, like they bought it instead of earned it? 

The Yankees do it every couple of years why cant the Heat do it?

Posted by kmasonbx on 7/9/2010 1:09:00 AM (view original):
Dcy I don't this notion that because he went to Miami with D Wade and Bosh if he wins a title it's not earned. YOu still have to win games, just because you have the best big 3 doesn't mean you are guaranteed a title. People need to realize the gap between a great player like LeBron, Kobe and D Wade and a really good player like Deron Williams or Carmelo Anthony is actually pretty small. I remember having an argument back in 2006 saying that Kobe wasn't actually that much better than Paul Pierce but the perception was Kobe was light years ahead of him, of course the guy I was arguing with disagreed with me and then 2 years later in the NBA Finals Pierce if he didn't outplay Kobe he at the very least cancelled him out. Which speaks to my point that the gap between the great and very good is a small one. Which means if the right players don't surround those 3 the championships won't be easy to come by because when you think about how good Durant is and will be, and how good Westbrook can be and how good Serge Ibaka can be and then the solid rotation players like Jeff Green, James Harden and Sefalosha, OKC will have the star talent and supporting cast to contend with the Heat for the next few years. There are other teams like Portland who have guys who are only slightly below the level of those 3 or at least 2 of the 3 like Brandon Roy and LeMarcus Aldridge on the Blazers soon to be Derrick Rose and Carlos Boozer on the Bulls. Now if those teams are much deeper then the Heat and the top 2 players mostly cancel out 2 of the big 3 then these teams will be able to seriously challenge Miami.

I started rambling a bit there but the point I'm getting at is these 3 don't guarantee a championship at all, there is a lot of talent in the NBA and 3 guys aren't going to be good enough to win without good role players, and any title they win will be earned. Was LeBron supposed to stay in Cleveland where their cap situation was such that made it nearly impossible to make changes to contend for a title just so people would think he's loyal? He wants to win championships, he realized that wasn't happening Cleveland and he saw a chance to make that happen.

I get the backlash about the spectacle LeBron created but hating on him for going to Miami and taking less money because he wants to win a title is a bad reason to dislike him. Like Herm Edwards said "You play to win the game" and LeBron clearly wants to win more then he wants to make as much as possible.

Lots of valid points Mason, and you know from being in a conference together for a long time, that I respect your opinion.  The one thing I wish people would quit saying though is that he "took less money to win a title".  Yes, he took a few million less.  But let's be realistic about the situation.  The amount of money that he left on the table in Cleveland to go to Miami is nothing.  When you're dealing with that many zeroes, there's no difference between 20 and 25 million a year (just throwing numbers out there, I know that's not the exact salaries).  For someone to say that it's "honorable" (and a say someone in the general sense, not towards you specifically) of him to give up more money to chase a title is just naive.  This kid will make more money in ONE season than 99% of the world will see in their whole lifetime.

The simple fact is, he realized that his "acquisitions" in Cleveland didn't pan out for him, he's trying to portray the good teammate role by "accepting less money", and he's trying to stack a team and buy a title.  Period.  Yes, he needs a few role players around him to make that happen.  And yes, he's taking the easy way out.

Hell, maybe I'm the one that's naive, but do you know what the difference is between 80 million and 100 million to me?  Nothing, because like I said, when you're dealing with that many zeroes, it doesn't even matter anymore.  Face it, the kid sold out because he knows that if he never wins a title, he'll never be considered in a discussion of the greatest players of all-time.  The ironic thing is, he probably would have gotten more respect by winning a single title in Cleveland surrounded by "role players" and taking it upon his own shoulders to lift that team to victory than he will if he wins multiple titles in Miami with a "stacked", store bought team.

Posted by childplease on 7/9/2010 1:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dcy0827 on 7/9/2010 12:17:00 AM (view original):
If they win a title, won't it seem "cheap" though, like they bought it instead of earned it? 

The Yankees do it every couple of years why cant the Heat do it?

Yes, and I would venture to say that most people outside of New York consider it cheap.  Why do you think there's always a call for a salary cap in baseball?

Here's another way to look at it, LeBron had a chance to play with 2 of his closest friends AND on top of that call South Beach home. Let's compare his old home to his new home, is there any real comparison? From all indications during the Olympics these 3 along with Chris Paul became extremely tight, to the point where they said they would all play with each other one day, so far they have 3 of the 4. I also think the amount of money LeBron left on the table is a lot more then you think, if those 3 sign for more than 15 million a year I'd be shocked. I'm expecting 5 year 70 million dollar deals for Bosh and LeBron and 6 years 90 or so for D Wade. I'm thinking LeBron left at least 30 million on the table and 40 or so had he stayed in Cleveland. I do agree that in reality the difference between 80 million and 100 million isn't a big deal when your talking about those type of #s. However do you remember when KG signed that deal with the Wolves where he was getting 25 mil a year and sat at the press conference talking about it's not about the money? I mean we have a case where an athlete, well athletes can actually say that and mean it. There's something noble about that. I really don't agree with the notion that it would've been more noble of LeBron to take max money from Cleveland and stay there just because people think that's what he should've done. What's the point of making max money and not winning? 

I doubt we'll agree on this so I'll just stop here, there's really nothing else I can say on the topic I'll just end up rehashing the same stuff over and over.

Posted by dcy0827 on 7/9/2010 1:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by kmasonbx on 7/9/2010 1:09:00 AM (view original):
Dcy I don't this notion that because he went to Miami with D Wade and Bosh if he wins a title it's not earned. YOu still have to win games, just because you have the best big 3 doesn't mean you are guaranteed a title. People need to realize the gap between a great player like LeBron, Kobe and D Wade and a really good player like Deron Williams or Carmelo Anthony is actually pretty small. I remember having an argument back in 2006 saying that Kobe wasn't actually that much better than Paul Pierce but the perception was Kobe was light years ahead of him, of course the guy I was arguing with disagreed with me and then 2 years later in the NBA Finals Pierce if he didn't outplay Kobe he at the very least cancelled him out. Which speaks to my point that the gap between the great and very good is a small one. Which means if the right players don't surround those 3 the championships won't be easy to come by because when you think about how good Durant is and will be, and how good Westbrook can be and how good Serge Ibaka can be and then the solid rotation players like Jeff Green, James Harden and Sefalosha, OKC will have the star talent and supporting cast to contend with the Heat for the next few years. There are other teams like Portland who have guys who are only slightly below the level of those 3 or at least 2 of the 3 like Brandon Roy and LeMarcus Aldridge on the Blazers soon to be Derrick Rose and Carlos Boozer on the Bulls. Now if those teams are much deeper then the Heat and the top 2 players mostly cancel out 2 of the big 3 then these teams will be able to seriously challenge Miami.

I started rambling a bit there but the point I'm getting at is these 3 don't guarantee a championship at all, there is a lot of talent in the NBA and 3 guys aren't going to be good enough to win without good role players, and any title they win will be earned. Was LeBron supposed to stay in Cleveland where their cap situation was such that made it nearly impossible to make changes to contend for a title just so people would think he's loyal? He wants to win championships, he realized that wasn't happening Cleveland and he saw a chance to make that happen.

I get the backlash about the spectacle LeBron created but hating on him for going to Miami and taking less money because he wants to win a title is a bad reason to dislike him. Like Herm Edwards said "You play to win the game" and LeBron clearly wants to win more then he wants to make as much as possible.

Lots of valid points Mason, and you know from being in a conference together for a long time, that I respect your opinion.  The one thing I wish people would quit saying though is that he "took less money to win a title".  Yes, he took a few million less.  But let's be realistic about the situation.  The amount of money that he left on the table in Cleveland to go to Miami is nothing.  When you're dealing with that many zeroes, there's no difference between 20 and 25 million a year (just throwing numbers out there, I know that's not the exact salaries).  For someone to say that it's "honorable" (and a say someone in the general sense, not towards you specifically) of him to give up more money to chase a title is just naive.  This kid will make more money in ONE season than 99% of the world will see in their whole lifetime.

The simple fact is, he realized that his "acquisitions" in Cleveland didn't pan out for him, he's trying to portray the good teammate role by "accepting less money", and he's trying to stack a team and buy a title.  Period.  Yes, he needs a few role players around him to make that happen.  And yes, he's taking the easy way out.

Hell, maybe I'm the one that's naive, but do you know what the difference is between 80 million and 100 million to me?  Nothing, because like I said, when you're dealing with that many zeroes, it doesn't even matter anymore.  Face it, the kid sold out because he knows that if he never wins a title, he'll never be considered in a discussion of the greatest players of all-time.  The ironic thing is, he probably would have gotten more respect by winning a single title in Cleveland surrounded by "role players" and taking it upon his own shoulders to lift that team to victory than he will if he wins multiple titles in Miami with a "stacked", store bought team.

The ironic thing is, he probably would have gotten more respect by winning a single title in Cleveland surrounded by "role players" and taking it upon his own shoulders to lift that team to victory than he will if he wins multiple titles in Miami with a "stacked", store bought team.

I agree with everything you said about the $, and I do wish he had stayed, but in every single discussion about "best ever," rings will always be considered more important than stats, or achieving more with less.  

it will be funny when the heat lose

Posted by jetwildcat on 7/9/2010 1:59:00 AM (view original):
it will be funny when the heat lose

Yeah, everyone's already crowning them, but eventually they'll run into a team full of crunchy veterans that took half the season off (see: Celtics) with a good coach, and they'll be shocked in 6 or 7.

Go to www.cavs.com to see Dan Gilbert response.

Honestly if the Heat win the title this year I'll be shocked. Although they did just sign Mike Miller who is a damn good role player to have.

Posted by piratesfan23 on 7/9/2010 2:07:00 AM (view original):
Go to www.cavs.com to see Dan Gilbert response.

As far as I remember, Gilbert's been pretty good to him (I may be wrong?)

That said, the letter is rather unbecoming for an owner, and the guarantee is hilarious.

Posted by pumphead on 7/9/2010 1:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dcy0827 on 7/9/2010 1:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by kmasonbx on 7/9/2010 1:09:00 AM (view original):
Dcy I don't this notion that because he went to Miami with D Wade and Bosh if he wins a title it's not earned. YOu still have to win games, just because you have the best big 3 doesn't mean you are guaranteed a title. People need to realize the gap between a great player like LeBron, Kobe and D Wade and a really good player like Deron Williams or Carmelo Anthony is actually pretty small. I remember having an argument back in 2006 saying that Kobe wasn't actually that much better than Paul Pierce but the perception was Kobe was light years ahead of him, of course the guy I was arguing with disagreed with me and then 2 years later in the NBA Finals Pierce if he didn't outplay Kobe he at the very least cancelled him out. Which speaks to my point that the gap between the great and very good is a small one. Which means if the right players don't surround those 3 the championships won't be easy to come by because when you think about how good Durant is and will be, and how good Westbrook can be and how good Serge Ibaka can be and then the solid rotation players like Jeff Green, James Harden and Sefalosha, OKC will have the star talent and supporting cast to contend with the Heat for the next few years. There are other teams like Portland who have guys who are only slightly below the level of those 3 or at least 2 of the 3 like Brandon Roy and LeMarcus Aldridge on the Blazers soon to be Derrick Rose and Carlos Boozer on the Bulls. Now if those teams are much deeper then the Heat and the top 2 players mostly cancel out 2 of the big 3 then these teams will be able to seriously challenge Miami.

I started rambling a bit there but the point I'm getting at is these 3 don't guarantee a championship at all, there is a lot of talent in the NBA and 3 guys aren't going to be good enough to win without good role players, and any title they win will be earned. Was LeBron supposed to stay in Cleveland where their cap situation was such that made it nearly impossible to make changes to contend for a title just so people would think he's loyal? He wants to win championships, he realized that wasn't happening Cleveland and he saw a chance to make that happen.

I get the backlash about the spectacle LeBron created but hating on him for going to Miami and taking less money because he wants to win a title is a bad reason to dislike him. Like Herm Edwards said "You play to win the game" and LeBron clearly wants to win more then he wants to make as much as possible.

Lots of valid points Mason, and you know from being in a conference together for a long time, that I respect your opinion.  The one thing I wish people would quit saying though is that he "took less money to win a title".  Yes, he took a few million less.  But let's be realistic about the situation.  The amount of money that he left on the table in Cleveland to go to Miami is nothing.  When you're dealing with that many zeroes, there's no difference between 20 and 25 million a year (just throwing numbers out there, I know that's not the exact salaries).  For someone to say that it's "honorable" (and a say someone in the general sense, not towards you specifically) of him to give up more money to chase a title is just naive.  This kid will make more money in ONE season than 99% of the world will see in their whole lifetime.

The simple fact is, he realized that his "acquisitions" in Cleveland didn't pan out for him, he's trying to portray the good teammate role by "accepting less money", and he's trying to stack a team and buy a title.  Period.  Yes, he needs a few role players around him to make that happen.  And yes, he's taking the easy way out.

Hell, maybe I'm the one that's naive, but do you know what the difference is between 80 million and 100 million to me?  Nothing, because like I said, when you're dealing with that many zeroes, it doesn't even matter anymore.  Face it, the kid sold out because he knows that if he never wins a title, he'll never be considered in a discussion of the greatest players of all-time.  The ironic thing is, he probably would have gotten more respect by winning a single title in Cleveland surrounded by "role players" and taking it upon his own shoulders to lift that team to victory than he will if he wins multiple titles in Miami with a "stacked", store bought team.

The ironic thing is, he probably would have gotten more respect by winning a single title in Cleveland surrounded by "role players" and taking it upon his own shoulders to lift that team to victory than he will if he wins multiple titles in Miami with a "stacked", store bought team.

I agree with everything you said about the $, and I do wish he had stayed, but in every single discussion about "best ever," rings will always be considered more important than stats, or achieving more with less.  

I agree Pump, that championships are the most important thing.  I mean, really, isn't that why you're supposed to play the game?  To win?  That's why they keep score, right?  Here's something to think about though (and I say this not as a smartass, but more of, well, a smartass, I guess.  But in a good smartass kind of way)!  :^)  If rings were the end-all-be-all of greatest player discussions (or at least the single most important criteria), how come Bill Russell's name rarely gets mentioned anymore?  Guys got more rings than fingers!!  :^)  Do I think he was the best player ever?  No.  Top 10?  Probably, although you could argue for ten players "better" than him.  Just something to ponder on..........