how to use the FB/FCP with the new engine? Topic

ejectgoose
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The correct answer must be: the exact opposite of how I've been using it.  I firmly believe under the old engine my D3 Finlandia team would've been the best in the country this season, yet somehow I've struggled to a 10-8 start.  Despite significant advantages in SPD and ATH, comparatively high IQs, and top level LP and PER ratings, I'm totally floundering... and totally clueless.  I'd love some thoughts from anyone who's either experiencing the same thing I am or who's found a way to adjust.

I've tried varying tempo, distribution, +/- on defense--all to no avail.  It's my feeling at this point that all of the areas where I enjoy competitive advantages have been completely counteracted by DEF and STA, where my team admittedly suffers.  Any thoughts would be appreciated!
7/13/2010 9:46 PM
kmasonbx
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Like you said it's all about def and stamina. Days are gone where players with awful defensive ratings will still be good defenders because they are fast and athletic. Which is how it should be IMO.

7/13/2010 9:54 PM
coolman97865
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Posted by kmasonbx on 7/13/2010 9:54:00 PM (view original):

Like you said it's all about def and stamina. Days are gone where players with awful defensive ratings will still be good defenders because they are fast and athletic. Which is how it should be IMO.

If we were playing M2M I would agree with you but in regards to DIII press teams speed and athleticism should be the crucial elements.  Defensive stance and things like that shouldn't make a tremendous difference because you're never really guarding people straight up but allways looking for traps.  As far as STA is concerned I've always wished it would play a significant role to increase the importance of depth.
7/13/2010 10:08 PM
hughesjr
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Posted by coolman97865 on 7/13/2010 10:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kmasonbx on 7/13/2010 9:54:00 PM (view original):

Like you said it's all about def and stamina. Days are gone where players with awful defensive ratings will still be good defenders because they are fast and athletic. Which is how it should be IMO.

If we were playing M2M I would agree with you but in regards to DIII press teams speed and athleticism should be the crucial elements.  Defensive stance and things like that shouldn't make a tremendous difference because you're never really guarding people straight up but allways looking for traps.  As far as STA is concerned I've always wished it would play a significant role to increase the importance of depth.
This is what DEF is supposed to mean:
===
Defense (def): like rebounding, defense refers to a player's defensive fundamentals and their desire to play defense. Again, knowledge of the fundamentals and having the desire are great, but you also need the athleticism and speed to be a great defender.
===

That does not just mean their "defensive stance" ... it also means their desire to play defense, to give effort on defense (according to the guide).  So, you need DEF, SPD, ATH ... not just SPD and ATH (it would seem). 

7/13/2010 10:34 PM
kmasonbx
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If you're a bad defender, you're a bad defender it doesn't matter what defensive set you're playing.
7/13/2010 10:34 PM
coolman97865
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Posted by hughesjr on 7/13/2010 10:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by coolman97865 on 7/13/2010 10:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kmasonbx on 7/13/2010 9:54:00 PM (view original):

Like you said it's all about def and stamina. Days are gone where players with awful defensive ratings will still be good defenders because they are fast and athletic. Which is how it should be IMO.

If we were playing M2M I would agree with you but in regards to DIII press teams speed and athleticism should be the crucial elements.  Defensive stance and things like that shouldn't make a tremendous difference because you're never really guarding people straight up but allways looking for traps.  As far as STA is concerned I've always wished it would play a significant role to increase the importance of depth.
This is what DEF is supposed to mean:
===
Defense (def): like rebounding, defense refers to a player's defensive fundamentals and their desire to play defense. Again, knowledge of the fundamentals and having the desire are great, but you also need the athleticism and speed to be a great defender.
===

That does not just mean their "defensive stance" ... it also means their desire to play defense, to give effort on defense (according to the guide).  So, you need DEF, SPD, ATH ... not just SPD and ATH (it would seem). 

that's a fair point.  I didn't realize that DEF also measured a "desire to play defense." 
7/13/2010 10:43 PM
coolman97865
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Posted by kmasonbx on 7/13/2010 10:34:00 PM (view original):
If you're a bad defender, you're a bad defender it doesn't matter what defensive set you're playing.
It's not that simple.  players with one set of ratings should be able to play relatively better in a zone than a press if they have weak SPD and STA for instance. 
7/13/2010 10:45 PM
arssanguinus
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Also, at least to me, it seems to effect how often you foul, which in a press. . .


7/13/2010 10:53 PM
hughesjr
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How about this ...

When playing Defense, the DEF and DEF_IQ (for that set) ratings are key in all sets.  Other attributes (Like SPD and ATH) vary in importance depending on the set.  So for Zone, maybe DEF has a bigger impact than in FCP ... but it has an impact in every set.

I am not saying for sure that is exactly how it works, just theorizing that maybe now, DEF matters everywhere and you also need SPD/ATH guys (as well as DEF) for the press ... where in Zone, maybe ATH and SPD are less important (and you also average the LINE so one good and one bad guy can balance).  Maybe in M2M, SPD/ATH are more important than zone and less important than in the press.

Anyway, I am not sure, but it certainly worth trying.
7/13/2010 11:15 PM
coolman97865
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I think we're on the same page here.  DEF, SPD, ATH, IQ should be important in all sets but their importance varies based on what set you run.  I think that's how it already works though.
7/13/2010 11:25 PM
jjwarden
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Posted by kmasonbx on 7/13/2010 9:54:00 PM (view original):

Like you said it's all about def and stamina. Days are gone where players with awful defensive ratings will still be good defenders because they are fast and athletic. Which is how it should be IMO.

Wow, how wrong is that statement.  My current back-up shooting guard at DII N. Florida has the following stats:

ATH: 95
SPD: 95
DEF: 21
SBL: 19
STA: 89

Triangle: A-
Press: A

He was just awarded the conference DEF player of the year as well as the NATIONAL DEF PLAYER OF THE YEAR.  Pretty much proves that speed and athleticism still carry weight.  


7/13/2010 11:37 PM
kmasonbx
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Was that season using the new engine? Also he's an extreme example because his ath/sp is better than SGs in power conferences. However you make just a normal athletic/fast D2 player and I don't think he'd be a good defender in the new engine, so for example if he was 55ath/90sp he'd commit more fouls and have less steals while still having an ath/sp advantage in most games. A D2 player with mid 90s in ath and speed is extremely rare.
7/14/2010 12:50 AM
kmasonbx
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Posted by coolman97865 on 7/13/2010 10:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kmasonbx on 7/13/2010 10:34:00 PM (view original):
If you're a bad defender, you're a bad defender it doesn't matter what defensive set you're playing.
It's not that simple.  players with one set of ratings should be able to play relatively better in a zone than a press if they have weak SPD and STA for instance. 
You're talking about speed and stamina as a factors I'm just talking about defensive rating. If somebody has a bad defensive rating it doesn't matter what defense you put them in they will still be bad defensive players. A guy like Zydrunas Illgauskas is just a bad defender, it doesn't matter what defensive system he plays in he's going to suck. Now somebody like Yao might suck in a FCP where stamina and speed are important but you put him in a M2M or zone and he's a pretty good defender.
7/14/2010 12:53 AM
jjwarden
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Posted by kmasonbx on 7/14/2010 12:50:00 AM (view original):
Was that season using the new engine? Also he's an extreme example because his ath/sp is better than SGs in power conferences. However you make just a normal athletic/fast D2 player and I don't think he'd be a good defender in the new engine, so for example if he was 55ath/90sp he'd commit more fouls and have less steals while still having an ath/sp advantage in most games. A D2 player with mid 90s in ath and speed is extremely rare.
Yes, this example is with the new engine.  Seasons in Smith just ended last week and Sisk  was the DEF player of the year.  I agree that this player has extreme ATH and SPD but with a DEF rating of 20 you would think his defensive would be exposed pretty quick.  Just an example that ATH and SPD can still trump DEF to some degree.
7/14/2010 9:32 PM
narcotico
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Posted by jjwarden on 7/14/2010 9:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kmasonbx on 7/14/2010 12:50:00 AM (view original):
Was that season using the new engine? Also he's an extreme example because his ath/sp is better than SGs in power conferences. However you make just a normal athletic/fast D2 player and I don't think he'd be a good defender in the new engine, so for example if he was 55ath/90sp he'd commit more fouls and have less steals while still having an ath/sp advantage in most games. A D2 player with mid 90s in ath and speed is extremely rare.
Yes, this example is with the new engine.  Seasons in Smith just ended last week and Sisk  was the DEF player of the year.  I agree that this player has extreme ATH and SPD but with a DEF rating of 20 you would think his defensive would be exposed pretty quick.  Just an example that ATH and SPD can still trump DEF to some degree.
WIS Defensive Player of the Year doesn't necessarily mean he was a great defender, or even a good one. Was the guy shutting down opposing players while playing good team D, or was he simply leading the conference/division in steals?

I'm pretty sure awards are based entirely on easily-referenced stats ~ i.e. steals and/or blocks, maaaaaybe fouls~ and don't factor in how well the player was at locking down opposing players. Basic stats have never really reflected the best true man on man defenders in basketball, but they do often make steal/block type gambling guys look like better defenders than they really are. Was the guy in the right spots giving opposing scorers fits, was he hustling, playing good help/team defense? Unlike with offensive players you really have to observe closely to notice if a player is a truly good(or bad or average)all-around defender...and for HD(especially teams that are running press or zone) where you have a boxscore and pbp but can't actually watch the games, this is not an easy thing to discern.
7/15/2010 12:34 AM (edited)
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