General question: Did they overkill the press? Topic

grantduck
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I thought the press was slightly too good in the old engine.  You could counter that by going 3 guards, etc.

In the new one, even with mediocre ball handlers and SPD values, it's tough to force over 20 TO's.

Thoughts?



7/21/2010 2:15 AM
kmasonbx
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How many teams press in real life? 
7/21/2010 2:55 AM
alblack56
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Previously, it was too strong.   And, yes, it's more difficult to run this season. You need the right personal and experience but it can still work for you

7/21/2010 3:50 AM
grantduck
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Posted by kmasonbx on 7/21/2010 2:55:00 AM (view original):
How many teams press in real life? 
Not as many that should. :-)

Primary reason for that is it's tough to get a team that's 10-12 deep for pressing all the time any more.

Regardless, most teams at least have some sort of pressure package/option.


7/21/2010 4:50 AM (edited)
grantduck
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Posted by alblack56 on 7/21/2010 3:50:00 AM (view original):

Previously, it was too strong.   And, yes, it's more difficult to run this season. You need the right personal and experience but it can still work for you

I question that when crappy BH, P, and SPD players are flat not turning it over against the press anymore, even against the "right personell"
7/21/2010 4:49 AM
alblack56
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Posted by grantduck on 7/21/2010 2:15:00 AM (view original):


I thought the press was slightly too good in the old engine.  You could counter that by going 3 guards, etc.

In the new one, even with mediocre ball handlers and SPD values, it's tough to force over 20 TO's.

Thoughts?



Your team forced 18 TOs/ game, including 20+ in  eleven different games.  I think you would've had more but you had so many lopsided games that your subs were on the floor alot.  You also used a combo defense which probably lowered your turnover rate.  It'd be interesting to know how many of your turnovers were against the press vs. your M2M but I'm not sure the play-by-play breaks it down that way.

There were 10 DII teams that forced over 20 TO's/game. All used the press alone, not in combination

 The NCAA worst for turnovers last season was Alcorn State, who committed 20.7/game
7/21/2010 5:41 AM (edited)
a_in_the_b
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 Real life Opponent's turnovers per game; highest:
Division one
Missouri: 19.4
Division 2
Midwestern State: 19.09
Division 3:
Elms: 23.03
 
7/21/2010 7:14 AM
cburton23
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I've mentioned this to a few other coaches and will post it here as well.  What has happened to the press is they have made it just like any other defense.  You have to have high IQ now and need more than just speed and athleticism.  I think overall this is a good thing, but if I could make one change it would add a little more risk reward to the defense.  When reading the PBP you don't see alot of spurts or runs.  If you watch a press team like Missouri many times they will score 8-10 points in a 45 second span, on the other side they will give up lots of easy run-outs and we just don't see that often in this game.
7/21/2010 9:22 AM
grantduck
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Posted by alblack56 on 7/21/2010 5:41:00 AM (view original):
Posted by grantduck on 7/21/2010 2:15:00 AM (view original):


I thought the press was slightly too good in the old engine.  You could counter that by going 3 guards, etc.

In the new one, even with mediocre ball handlers and SPD values, it's tough to force over 20 TO's.

Thoughts?



Your team forced 18 TOs/ game, including 20+ in  eleven different games.  I think you would've had more but you had so many lopsided games that your subs were on the floor alot.  You also used a combo defense which probably lowered your turnover rate.  It'd be interesting to know how many of your turnovers were against the press vs. your M2M but I'm not sure the play-by-play breaks it down that way.

There were 10 DII teams that forced over 20 TO's/game. All used the press alone, not in combination

 The NCAA worst for turnovers last season was Alcorn State, who committed 20.7/game
Very true re the combo.

The only issue I really had with it, is it didn't seem like I forced more TO's against teams with inferior BH/SPD/P over the course of the season. 

A good example would be Cornell/Kentucky this year, where Kentucky's pressure destroyed Cornell, despite their IQ being high in their offense, because they had superior ATH/SPD at every position.  I don't feel that's really the case anymore.

I'm cool with adjusting and playing less press, but I do think they overkilled it a little bit.


7/21/2010 11:06 PM
daalter
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"A good example would be Cornell/Kentucky this year, where Kentucky's pressure destroyed Cornell, despite their IQ being high in their offense, because they had superior ATH/SPD at every position.  I don't feel that's really the case anymore."

Right ... except for the small fact that Cornell only turned the ball over 15 times. (While Kentucky turned it over 13.)

The press was ridiculously strong before. Now I feel like it's just about perfect; you can still win (and even dominate) with it, but you need the right personnel and it is no longer a cure-all.
7/22/2010 12:36 AM
oldave
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cornell  did not play thier game.  I saw every game last year and that was one of the porrest games they played.    maybe you could say that Kentucky's ath and pressure was on thier mind and so that what looked like "unforced" errors and bad shots was not completely "self-inflicted"... maybe. 

In fairness,  Kentucky did not play as well as they were capable of either.

I would just  like to have seen Cornell play at thier normal level.  OR made a statement about his AAU team and that they (like most well-coached teams) love to be pressed because if you spread the floor and pass well, you can eat it up.  I think Cornell's A+ Iq's may have been fun to watch.  but i think nerves got to us.


Dont get me wrong,  I was still thrilled with the season we had (obviously) and Im not down on coach donahue or any of the players.  just a little dissapointed because it could have been a really beautiful basketball game with contrasting styles, but it  turned out to be kind of a stinker.  But those first few minutes where Cornell came out hot were probably the most fun i ever had at a basketball game.

did anyone notice the irony of a powerhouse kentucky team (with nearly all african-american players) going up against a cinderella team (with nearly all white players)? 
7/22/2010 7:33 AM
girt25
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A slight difference from Kentucky vs. Texas Western, huh?
7/22/2010 7:39 AM
cburton23
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I think one thing that would help us all out, but especially press coaches, would be to put a recruits IQ on FSS.  With IQ being even more important now than it was before, recruiting the right player IQ wise has become a lot more important, especially if that player will see court time in their first year.  I think press coaches will also have to always make sure they have a full roster.  My previous strategy of sometimes taking 10 players will no longer work with my press teams.  (Although it may well have become an even more effective strategy for my man and zone teams.)

oldave, in regards to what you said about good teams being pressed and loving it because it spreads the floor.  That is true to an extent.  The problem comes up when we play a team that has signicantly better speed, athleticism, and though its not a part of this game, size.  Then it really doesn't matter how much we have scouted and practiced against it, it gives us fits.
7/22/2010 9:33 AM
cthomas22255
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Posted by cburton23 on 7/22/2010 9:33:00 AM (view original):
I think one thing that would help us all out, but especially press coaches, would be to put a recruits IQ on FSS.  With IQ being even more important now than it was before, recruiting the right player IQ wise has become a lot more important, especially if that player will see court time in their first year.  I think press coaches will also have to always make sure they have a full roster.  My previous strategy of sometimes taking 10 players will no longer work with my press teams.  (Although it may well have become an even more effective strategy for my man and zone teams.)

oldave, in regards to what you said about good teams being pressed and loving it because it spreads the floor.  That is true to an extent.  The problem comes up when we play a team that has signicantly better speed, athleticism, and though its not a part of this game, size.  Then it really doesn't matter how much we have scouted and practiced against it, it gives us fits.
Instead of having a player's IQ show up on FSS, how about at least just have FSS show the system his school runs?  You could still get the "average" "below average" comment from coach calls & scouting trips the same as always.  I think that'd be an ideal change.
7/22/2010 9:39 AM
daalter
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Absolutely ... it doesn't make a lick of sense that O/D aren't on FSS.

The kid's been scouted enough to know detailed information and potential in every category, but you don't know if he played m2m or zone?
7/22/2010 9:41 AM
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