Free FSS? - Page 7 - Hoops Dynasty

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Posted by cornfused on 8/25/2010 5:09:00 PM (view original):
Posted by coach_billyg on 8/24/2010 3:25:00 PM (view original):
i personally am totally against free FSS. recruiting before potential had you searching the entire country's recruiting pool, and i don't think i could endure that again. that was just horribly tedious. in d1, i don't think it makes much difference - most people stay within 360 miles for most recruits, and fss is negligible in cost in that radius in most cases.

but in d2/d3, it would make a huge change to the recruiting dynamic. not having everybody know player X in OK is a diamond in the rough is quite nice for the guys in the area, and it keeps low d1 schools who are scrounging the bottom of the bucket from scrounging the best d2 players from the whole country, etc... i really would hate for everybody to see every single player, like we used to. but before, we had a buffer - a lot of players on a gradual continuum from maxed out to almost maxed out to not quite maxed out but close enough to make any d1 school happy. now, the d1 schools already rape and pillage the top d2 prospects; this would only increase. same with d2ers raping and pillaging the d3 prospects.

as rails and others have stated, there is no strategy in fss. really? as a d2 school, i face the question almost every season... accept the players ive found, or keep looking. the cost of FSS is very real. its not binary, there are many states and many ways to go about it. if you decide to scout 20 states to find that gem big man who has eluded you, you might not have the money to win him any more. how is there not strategy in that? with the most successful d2 program of the potential era, i struggle almost every season with how to use FSS at that school. clearly, there are decisions there, and thus, strategy.
Most successful d2 program of the potential era? Gotta be "of all time."

9 NCs in 21 seasons

6 NCs in 9 seasons

5 NCs in 7 seasons, with a Final Four in all 7 of those seasons

4 NCs in 5 seasons

Elite Eight or better 14 seasons in a row

I mean, bowen_brian's 150-something-game win streak in conference play in the Allen GLV is pretty cool. But I don't think anyone's gonna beat that resume.

thanks :) i really wasn't trying to get into all that... just wanted to point out that if i had to work my way through the scouting/considering credit tradeoff season after season at siue, then clearly there has to be some strategy there :) i personally think there is a LOT of strategy, possibly more than the rest of recruiting put together, in the lower divisions. the new engine kind of messes things up because its not nearly as worthwhile to find the best player, because he is likely going to a d1 school. before, it was very costly, but very beneficial to do so. if i had to guess, i would say i probably spent more scouting and on follow up evals at SIUE than any d2 team in HD... and i think the results speak for themselves.

8/26/2010 3:19 PM

acn24

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Posted by cornfused on 8/25/2010 5:09:00 PM (view original):
Posted by coach_billyg on 8/24/2010 3:25:00 PM (view original):
i personally am totally against free FSS. recruiting before potential had you searching the entire country's recruiting pool, and i don't think i could endure that again. that was just horribly tedious. in d1, i don't think it makes much difference - most people stay within 360 miles for most recruits, and fss is negligible in cost in that radius in most cases.

but in d2/d3, it would make a huge change to the recruiting dynamic. not having everybody know player X in OK is a diamond in the rough is quite nice for the guys in the area, and it keeps low d1 schools who are scrounging the bottom of the bucket from scrounging the best d2 players from the whole country, etc... i really would hate for everybody to see every single player, like we used to. but before, we had a buffer - a lot of players on a gradual continuum from maxed out to almost maxed out to not quite maxed out but close enough to make any d1 school happy. now, the d1 schools already rape and pillage the top d2 prospects; this would only increase. same with d2ers raping and pillaging the d3 prospects.

as rails and others have stated, there is no strategy in fss. really? as a d2 school, i face the question almost every season... accept the players ive found, or keep looking. the cost of FSS is very real. its not binary, there are many states and many ways to go about it. if you decide to scout 20 states to find that gem big man who has eluded you, you might not have the money to win him any more. how is there not strategy in that? with the most successful d2 program of the potential era, i struggle almost every season with how to use FSS at that school. clearly, there are decisions there, and thus, strategy.
Most successful d2 program of the potential era? Gotta be "of all time."

9 NCs in 21 seasons

6 NCs in 9 seasons

5 NCs in 7 seasons, with a Final Four in all 7 of those seasons

4 NCs in 5 seasons

Elite Eight or better 14 seasons in a row

I mean, bowen_brian's 150-something-game win streak in conference play in the Allen GLV is pretty cool. But I don't think anyone's gonna beat that resume.

For sustained - maybe. But this is almost unquestionably the best DII run of all-time:

19	Rails	33-2	12-1	12-1	9-0	15-1	1	1	A+	Conf Champion CT Champion National Champion
18	Rails	34-2	11-2	14-0	9-0	14-2	1	2	A+	Conf Champion CT Champion National Champion
17	Rails	28-7	9-2	11-4	8-1	14-2	2	2	A+	NT At-large Bid National Champion
16	Rails	27-5	9-3	13-1	5-1	15-1	6	7	A+	Conf Champion CT Champion NT (Sweet 16)
15	Rails	33-2	13-1	11-1	9-0	15-1	1	1	A+	Conf Champion CT Champion National Champion
14	Rails	35-0	14-0	12-0	9-0	16-0	1	1	A+	Conf Champion CT Champion National Champion
13	Rails	33-2	12-1	13-0	8-1	15-1	1	1	A+	Conf Champion NT At-large Bid National Champion
12	Rails	34-1	12-0	13-1	9-0	16-0	1	1	A+	Conf Champion CT Champion National Champion
11	Rails	33-2	14-1	10-1	9-0	15-1	1	1	A+	Conf Champion CT Champion National Champion

8/26/2010 3:28 PM

colonels19

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Posted by jetwildcat on 8/25/2010 8:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by wronoj on 8/25/2010 8:31:00 PM (view original):
anything that takes a layer of strategy out of recruiting makes it LESS competitive, in my opinion.

and before you go around calling people names, you might want to put a little thought into it. If i were a "puss" why would i be in the ACC in Naismith and the Upstate in Wooden, two of the toughest conferences around for their respective divisions. i mean, you have 0 active teams, and quit your last world because you didn't renew and then got bitchy when they didn't let you have it back or its equivalent... who sounds like a puss of the 2 of us?
hahaha the fact that i have colonels' posts blocked makes reading this an absolute treat

Speaking of puss...the guy that left my fantasy football league because I didn't pass his sarcastic "test" to see if I would talk about ffb civilly, and because I ignored it, I failed. Again, you'll always see what you want to in me...it just won't always be the entire truth...understand that.

8/26/2010 5:34 PM (edited)

colonels19

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Posted by wronoj on 8/25/2010 8:31:00 PM (view original):
anything that takes a layer of strategy out of recruiting makes it LESS competitive, in my opinion.

and before you go around calling people names, you might want to put a little thought into it. If i were a "puss" why would i be in the ACC in Naismith and the Upstate in Wooden, two of the toughest conferences around for their respective divisions. i mean, you have 0 active teams, and quit your last world because you didn't renew and then got bitchy when they didn't let you have it back or its equivalent... who sounds like a puss of the 2 of us?

In the end, you're going to benefit from being in tough conferences anyhow because you'll naturally have higher RPIs and SOSs because you'll be playing better competition, so it has it's perks...it's not like it's no win.

Again, if you think leveling the playing field makes recruiting less competitive...then I don't really have any more reason to discuss this with you...what a ridiculous stance to take.

I'm a puss because I stand up for myself and what I believe in? LMAO. Great logic. I let the team lapse because A. I didn't know if I was going to have the time/passion to return to the game and B. because my promise-less starting PG to be transferred, and I'm just not going to get dumped on by the game and blindly accept it. I thought I would still be eligible for D1 jobs...hell I was after my first D1 season...I misread the situation, and still completely disagree with their job processes, seeing that when you buy your seasons plays a large role in what jobs you're eligible/qualified for. Just to clarify, I never wanted SCSU back, and I never contacted CS about getting me an D+/D/D- equivalent, so you can say what you want about me and what I post, but actions speak louder than words. I disagree with WIS' processes, but I didn't waste their time because of my opinions...but you'll all see what you will.

8/26/2010 5:30 PM

colonels19

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Posted by girt25 on 8/26/2010 12:26:00 AM (view original):
The fact that he's not utilizing a beta test world is downright embarrassing.

Fake worlds don't interest me in the least...it's like friggin preseason. If it doesn't count, it doesn't matter, I don't care what kind of game progress is made.

8/26/2010 5:32 PM

daalter

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Posted by colonels19 on 8/26/2010 5:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by girt25 on 8/26/2010 12:26:00 AM (view original):
The fact that he's not utilizing a beta test world is downright embarrassing.
Fake worlds don't interest me in the least...it's like friggin preseason. If it doesn't count, it doesn't matter, I don't care what kind of game progress is made.

Are you so incredibly dense that you can't comprehend the value of a beta world to test potential changes? It's hugely, immensely beneficial.

You can't be this dumb. I refuse to believe it.

8/26/2010 10:27 PM

_hannibal_

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Posted by colonels19 on 8/26/2010 5:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by girt25 on 8/26/2010 12:26:00 AM (view original):
The fact that he's not utilizing a beta test world is downright embarrassing.
Fake worlds don't interest me in the least...it's like friggin preseason. If it doesn't count, it doesn't matter, I don't care what kind of game progress is made.

Here's a little piece of advice -- it's all fake.

8/27/2010 10:40 AM

g0at

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By my count they have 10 beta test worlds :p

8/27/2010 5:28 PM

colonels19

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Posted by daalter on 8/26/2010 10:27:00 PM (view original):
Posted by colonels19 on 8/26/2010 5:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by girt25 on 8/26/2010 12:26:00 AM (view original):
The fact that he's not utilizing a beta test world is downright embarrassing.
Fake worlds don't interest me in the least...it's like friggin preseason. If it doesn't count, it doesn't matter, I don't care what kind of game progress is made.
Are you so incredibly dense that you can't comprehend the value of a beta world to test potential changes? It's hugely, immensely beneficial.

You can't be this dumb. I refuse to believe it.

I personally don't want to participate in an official beta world because it doesn't count, and it's just testing...I want to play the real game, however it is, because it counts...that's my point.

Free FSS doesn't need a friggin beta test, you either like the idea or you don't...I don't think seeing it in practice will change people either way, because it's pretty easy to predict what the outcomes/results would be if it were free. It's more a matter of opinion than anything...but like I said, if anyone thinks that leveling the playing field makes recruiting LESS competitive, then I have no point in discussing this topic further with those taking that stance, because the logic behind it is flat ridiculous. Again, the things that guys cling to in this game are so/rather insignificant. More features doesn't necessarily equal a better game, so if making FSS free is going to take pressure off of seble and allow him to do other, more important things to/with the game...then why not do it?

I think a lot of you guys are missing the big picture here to be honest.

8/27/2010 6:36 PM

jetwildcat

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Posted by _hannibal_ on 8/27/2010 10:40:00 AM (view original):
Posted by colonels19 on 8/26/2010 5:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by girt25 on 8/26/2010 12:26:00 AM (view original):
The fact that he's not utilizing a beta test world is downright embarrassing.
Fake worlds don't interest me in the least...it's like friggin preseason. If it doesn't count, it doesn't matter, I don't care what kind of game progress is made.
Here's a little piece of advice -- it's all fake.

hahahahaha

8/27/2010 8:23 PM

alblack56

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I vote for keeping FSS as it is.

8/29/2010 12:04 PM

Rails

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In addition to the other issues written about, there are two other issues that absoultely make no sense re: fss. The 5 DII schools in Puerto Rico and the $200 minimum cost per state. You guys are endorsing a system that allows all schools except five to be able to scout their local talent? That blows me away. And for states that have less than 20 recruits, a $200 minimum charge will still apply. So for certain teams they are paying much much more per recruit than others. Guys, Guys, Guys. The current set up is so backasswards. Strategy? Try location, location, location. It's all about location and dumb luck. Strategy as some suggest as in choosing to scout a certain state to find a gem? I'll scout state A, someone else scouts state B. State A has a high potential recruit. Goodie Goodie Gumdrops. I win because I guessed right! Michelob Light for me, the winner.

Or if I have the highest prestige, I can wait and start getting dropdowns first and then make a guess as to what state to scout. It's a guessing game--a random guessing game. It's bad system, guys. Costs don't add up, people cheat with duo IDs, etc. Reminds me of the youth baseball season we had this past year when it was all about the adults starting on Day 1. Well done with FSS, WIS. Way to hit it out of the park.

9/1/2010 1:08 AM

daalter

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Rails, I definitely think there is some legitimacy to your points, but they're also quite overstated.

First, let me make it clear that I think FSS/potential has made HD better and more strategic. You're right in the sense that they can still improve the system. But the fact is that almost every coach I know scouts all the states in their immediate vicinity that they want to recruit out of, so it's not really a guessing game. And even in DII, as recruiting goes on I usually end up scouting several other states as well where the players interest me. There's definitely a part of it where location/luck plays into it, but that's always been a part of HD recruiting, and the notion that those attributes are completely driving the process is just off base.

And some of the other stuff (i.e. Puerto Rico) is legitimate and could/should easily be fixed, but that's a very small issue in the grand scheme of things, not indicative of the massive overall failure that you are suggesting.

9/1/2010 7:43 AM

Rails

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You should add, "In your opinion." But you add to my point when you say that almost every coach you know scouts all the states in their immediate area. That's my point. Some teams are forced to spend much, much more to scout the same number of recruits within a certain range based on how it's currently set up. Actually that's my entire point. I don't think it's overstated. While some say it's added to the game, aren't the the numbers dropping?

9/1/2010 7:51 AM

oldresorter

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rails - I am more with you on this & your comment about location and dumb luck, I might change it to all about location and dumb luck for any given moment, over time more about location and knowledge, but hey, that is not important.

the one thing that 'floors' me about FSS, is money is allocated by division, hence 15k in d1 per scholy, 6.5k in d2, 3k in d3 - I don't even know anymore - is that right? Yet, the cost of FSS is fixed across all 3 divisions, hence d3 use of FSS is the most difficult strategically, and in d1 it is really hardly a strategic factor.

d3 contains many coaches who are just learning what each screen does, let alone trying to compete with guys who have played a couple of hundred seasons who have many advantages already, even if new guys don't know it, the non proportional cost of FSS over the 3 divisions is not fair. It would be kind of like charging everyone in america 10k in income taxes, bill gates would be able to pay that out of his wallet change, many retail workers would be paying 50% of their income, stuff like this needs to be proportional somehow to be fair.

That is why I would vote to either make the cost proportional to the allotment of money per scholy or make d3 (and maybe d2) free. The vets playing d3 will still be able to apply strategy in many, many ways to beat the newbies senseless, probably getting most of them to quit because of how unfair it feels anyhow.

9/1/2010 8:34 AM (edited)

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