Posted by oldresorter on 8/29/2010 10:25:00 AM:
I mean read anton's little 4am attack dog beauty - what is that all about - no wonder noone posts anymore or cares?

Dude - you asked a question, and then 20 minutes later were ragging on seble for not answering it.

You also called out a bunch of people for defending... err, something... the status quo I guess, who for the most part had done no such thing, and in at least one case had barely posted in the thread at all.

There was nothing wrong with your question. But you seemed far more interested in stirring up crap than you were in actually getting an answer to it.

Posted by girt25 on 8/29/2010 10:52:00 AM (view original):

Posted by jcfreder on 8/29/2010 10:37:00 AM (view original):
The thing is, if anybody was designing a basketball sim from scratch, you'd make each shot attempt independent of the others.  To their credit, this is how HD worked before.  However, OTHER flaws in the engine led to greater variance than you'd see in real life.  Using shooting % as an example, presumably the flaw was that each shot attempt had greater variance from a guy's true skill, leading to inordinant 1-10 or 9-10 games.  Now, instead of fixing the variance in each individual shot attempt, Seble has turned something HD gets RIGHT (independent shot attempts) into something HD gets WRONG (an 0-6 shooter will automatically be hotter).  Perhaps this awkward fix will actually improve the bottom line on games.  But at best it will do so by having early stats skewed one way, balanced out by later stats jerry-rigged to skew the opposite way, NOT by actually improving the simulation on a possession-by-possession basis. 

Best post on the topic so far.

Well, I wouldn't say it's a given that there was, in fact, greater variance than you'd see in real life - that's the question OR's asking.

seble's stated reason for this is that a significant number of coaches were complaining about there being too much variance. That doesn't mean there actually was too much.

Posted by kannc6 on 8/29/2010 12:13:00 PM (view original):
Isack.. My point is directly relayed to yours. If it hasn't been tested. No one knows...

OK, of course it has been tested.

seble doesn't just jump on the production server and knock out code changes by editing them there and seeing if the code works.

He posted a couple of weeks ago what had been changed.

He ran simulations of hundreds (probably of tens of thousands) of games and looked at the results.

Do you question how code is written for NCAA 2011 or Madden 2011 when they supply a patch to change the logic of their games.  Do you ask how they tested it?  I turned on my PS-3 game the other day and there was a 2nd patch that did the following things:

• Player Lock in Online Games will now move the camera behind the locked player (like Offline games)

• Greatly increased the quality of uploaded videos

• Fixed an issue with penalties on a change of possession in Overtime

• Fixed an issue where you would sometimes lose control of your player going offsides in no huddle situations

• Tuned holding chances on Field Goals and Extra Points

• Fixed a couple pass coverage issues with Wild Cat plays

• Tuned the chuck success chances to favor more neutral results. Wins and Losses are extreme and should occur less for both the offense and defense

• AI Tackle slider is now more effective

• Lead Blocking tweaks to fix some cases of pulling lineman ignoring defenders

• Fixed a few rare cases that would cause players in pursuit to run away from the ball carrier

• Tuned the CPU ball carrier to make some smarter choices

• Fixed a bug where the CPU would high step at inappropriate times

• Tuned player switching logic to give a more appropriate player

• Fixed an issue with Punts being spotted incorrectly when the punt went out of bounce

• Corrected an issue where pressing in man coverage would cause the CPU to throw the ball too early

• If the receiver caught a pass during a slip, rarely would he be ruled down after the catch (even if he got up before making the catch). This has been fixed.

• Fixed a bug where sometimes the clock would continue to run after hold on an extra point

• Forward pitches are now correctly tracked as passing and receiving yards for the players involved

• Receivers will now try and release to the appropriate side of the defender based on their route

• Fixed some problems that were causing defensive players to not always get back in time during hurry up plays

• Reduced the effect of the Run Block Slider on special teams plays

• Tuned how effective the slant route for running backs out of the backfield was

• Tuned how far away diving sacks will start from

• Fixed an online grieve with pausing the game

• Fixed a bug where using a TeamBuilder team as the away team would cause the team colors to be incorrect

• Fixed an issue where some Dynasty teams were only able to offer 15 scholarships. You will not have to restart your dynasty for this to take effect, the fix is for offline and online dynasties.

• Certain TeamBuilder teams were incorrectly being blocked by the profanity filter and showing up as XXXX, this has been corrected

• Fixed and issue where Punt was not the default selection on 4th down and punting distance

• Off-centered single digit jersey numbers are now centered correctly

• Fixed a crash in Custom Stadium Sounds when the list of files was too long

• TeamBuilder teams with & in the name can now be searched properly

• Fixed an issue where the “Online Dynasty Servers are Down” pop-up was showing up incorrectly

They not only push updates, they have Live Tuning Packages that change game play:

NEW FOR NCAA FOOTBALL 11 -- LIVE TUNING PACKAGES

A number of you have already noticed that we do a check for "Online Gameplay Tuning" when connecting to our online servers.  Some of you may also have found a new "Tuning" category in the Files menu.  This is a new technology for NCAA Football 11 that allows us to not only live update and tune core gameplay parameters -- like fumbles, throw accuracy, and juke success ratings -- but it also allows us to rebalance certain core features such as recruiting logic, blocking, even control the intensity of shadows cast by the football on a sunny day!

These new Live Tuning Packages (LTPs) contain literally 1000's of key parameters which drive the heart of our game; parameters that live well below the level of specific player or team ratings.  With our new LTPs we can often turn changes around in a few days.  It can't solve everything, and some issues will still require a traditional client update, but for many items it's definitely a more powerful and faster strategy for tuning throughout the season.

Our first LTP should be arriving next week along with detailed notes on what the update contains.  I can tell you that based on the collective feedback we've received, we will be carefully down-tuning the athleticism of defensive lineman and reduce the number of impressive picks by the big guys.  We're also looking to address a few important dynasty progression and recruiting issues.

How come no one is asking for a detailed accounting of what they are changing and exactly how they changed it?

Posted by kannc6 on 8/29/2010 12:13:00 PM (view original):
Isack.. My point is directly relayed to yours. If it hasn't been tested. No one knows...

That's true.  I would have liked an answer to your question, too, but I haven't seen anything totally crazy yet.  In fact, I lost a game by 16 last night that I should have won by 20, and got outrebounded despite having a big reb advantage.  Actually, the game deviated further from the mean in the second half.

Posted by oldresorter on 8/29/2010 1:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by antonsirius on 8/29/2010 12:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 8/29/2010 10:25:00 AM:
I mean read anton's little 4am attack dog beauty - what is that all about - no wonder noone posts anymore or cares?

Dude - you asked a question, and then 20 minutes later were ragging on seble for not answering it.

You also called out a bunch of people for defending... err, something... the status quo I guess, who for the most part had done no such thing, and in at least one case had barely posted in the thread at all.

There was nothing wrong with your question. But you seemed far more interested in stirring up crap than you were in actually getting an answer to it.

again - you contribute immensely to these forums, thank you for all your productive help on these issues - I wish I was as cogent as you.

if you had read my first post, I agreed with seble about this change will be minimal (something I have repeated several times and even told other coaches) and then asked a ? - that is not exactly stirring things up - is it?  Or can I not agree with seble and ask him a ? without you flamaing me????

he responded to ?'s after mine and ignored mine, so I repeated it - do I need to sitemail you to do so in the future to ask permission???

I guarantee you if I choose to stir things up, I can - this wasn't even remotely that

I have been fighting back on the flaming for quite some time which is pretty standard stuff the moment anyone want to discuss any issue about change, I might be fighting back the flamers too much as I seemed to hurt your lady feelings, this sort of grade school girl stuff makes me sort of sick - oh well - whatever DDDDDUUUUUDDDDEEEEEE

I'm not interested in turning this thread into a ******* contest with you, OR, sorry. You'll have to find another taker.

Between seasons in Crum, so I need to know. Is the sky really falling?

wow - thank goodness that idiot says he is gone - what do you think the odds are he is a man of his word and can keep his fingers off the keyboard - LOL

I'm not going to read back through all of this but it looks like a lot of angry people...

I'll throw my hat into the ring as one of the ones confused by what has happened.  I thought we were addressing rebounding woes, and I just had my weirdest rebounding game yet...in the conference tournament no less.

http://whatifsports.com/hd/GameResults/BoxScore.aspx?gid=6095086

Got completely dominated on the glass in the 2nd half by 2 frontcourt players that I had outmatched in terms of speed, ath, and rebounding in individual matchups....as a team we are also far more athletic and a better rebounding team.  We didn't shoot that bad, forced 20+ turnovers...definitely one that by the sounds of what the update was supposed to accomplish should have been a win.

I understand upsets can, will and should still happen, just frustrating to have one like this almost immediately that knocks you out of the tournament and keeps you out of the NT :(

I had a very odd rebounding game myself last night, bow.  Could have just been one of those things, but with rebounding seemingly being the major issue before, I would also have thought that would have been the most important issue addressed.

Hughes. Are you are actually trying to compare the professionalism of HD to Madden? I'm betting there are more people involved in the production of Madden and CF than play HD.I cant tell if you are trolling or not. NO I don't think it has been game tested. HD has a LONG history of inadequate game testing.... I dunno if this will improve the game or not and it may be for the better. but the history of the game is OVERREACTION without proper testing. (edited for spelling and grammar)

Posted by Weena on 8/29/2010 11:40:00 AM (view original):
There is a classic old comedy called No Time for Sergeants staring Andy Griffith as a rube who is forced to join the military. The movie primarily focuses on his exploits in Basic Training. In one scene, he is required to separate a chinese ring puzzle. Instead of solving it the traditional way he bends one of the rings straight to separate it from the other ring. The test monitor (Don Knotts) goes ballistic because he didn't do it the correct way. I think that is analagous to the situation here in that the arguments seem to question the method rather than the results. If the outcome proves satisfactory, does the method of arriving at it really matter all that much?

I enjoy the imagery of seble as Private Will Stockdale. It adds a whole 'nother way to look at HD changes:

Sergeant King: Will, uh, how would you like to be Permanent Latrine Orderly? 
Will Stockdale: Permanent Latrine Orderly? 
Sergeant King: P.L.O. 
Will Stockdale: Gol-lee! 

Posted by kannc6 on 8/29/2010 6:00:00 PM (view original):
Hughes. Are you are actually trying to compare the professionalism of HD to Madden? I'm better there are ore people involved in the production of Madden and CF than play HD.I cant tell if you are trolling or not. NO I don't think it has been game tested. HD has a LONG history of inadequate game testing.... I dunno if this will improve the game or not and it may be for the better. but the history of the game is OVERREACTION without proper testing.

overreaction without proper testing...that rings a bell.

Posted by oldresorter on 8/29/2010 1:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by antonsirius on 8/29/2010 12:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 8/29/2010 10:25:00 AM:
I mean read anton's little 4am attack dog beauty - what is that all about - no wonder noone posts anymore or cares?

Dude - you asked a question, and then 20 minutes later were ragging on seble for not answering it.

You also called out a bunch of people for defending... err, something... the status quo I guess, who for the most part had done no such thing, and in at least one case had barely posted in the thread at all.

There was nothing wrong with your question. But you seemed far more interested in stirring up crap than you were in actually getting an answer to it.

again - you contribute immensely to these forums, thank you for all your productive help on these issues - I wish I was as cogent as you.

if you had read my first post, I agreed with seble about this change will be minimal (something I have repeated several times and even told other coaches) and then asked a ? - that is not exactly stirring things up - is it?  Or can I not agree with seble and ask him a ? without you flamaing me????

he responded to ?'s after mine and ignored mine, so I repeated it - do I need to sitemail you to do so in the future to ask permission???

I guarantee you if I choose to stir things up, I can - this wasn't even remotely that

I have been fighting back on the flaming for quite some time which is pretty standard stuff the moment anyone want to discuss any issue about change, I might be fighting back the flamers too much as I seemed to hurt your lady feelings, this sort of grade school girl stuff makes me sort of sick - oh well - whatever DDDDDUUUUUDDDDEEEEEE

Dang, OR stepped down into the muck. He usually stays above the petty discussions. It's one of the reasons I respect him so much.

OR's right on this one. Anton agrees with him, but can't resist splitting hairs. daalter is skeptical but is attempting to be logical. I really don't think there is a lot of disagreement on this.

While seble made every attempt to time this perfectly between tournaments, it's unfortunate that it came out on a Saturday, and he is not readily available to answer questions after the initial flurry. My guess is that there will be answers forthcoming.

I'm willing to let a few seasons go by and see how this all works out. I mean, heck, I'd bet I have more total losses than anyone else in HD (it's important to have goals!). It's kind of exciting to be told "this is the make or break it season or you'll get fired" in world after world and yet a measley/desperate PIT appearance saves me.