Are those stats really going to be entirely meaningful in any world that isn't completely populated with new recruits though?  Even if they might be interesting.

guards shoot too high, bigs shoot too low.

there are way more pressing issues than that.

Posted by arssanguinus on 9/12/2010 9:47:00 AM (view original):
Are those stats really going to be entirely meaningful in any world that isn't completely populated with new recruits though?  Even if they might be interesting.

Doesn't matter if the world is populated with new all new recruits or not, the numbers need to be correct.  We had a situation in earlier worlds where there were pre-potential recruits and post-potential recruits mixed together for four seasons (I guess five if you include a few ineligibles).  That was a much different and much more complicated situation than we are looking at here, yet the numbers during those seasons with mix and match recruits were inline.

To imply that the numbers shouldn't matter for roughly four seasons while the old recruits cycle out shows one of two things (and I'm sorry to have to say this) (1) you're kind of out of touch with how this whole thing runs, or (2) you too often blindly defend WIS without thinking things through.  As I said, sorry for saying that, and I'm not trying to start an argument here, but again, to imply that the stats are "meaningless" because there are mixed and matched recruits (in essence saying that these four seasons could be screwed up, but we should deal with it because of the changes, is just unacceptable).  I don't pay my money to just play "meaningless" seasons, they need to be right, regardless of what kind of "recruits" are being used.

Apologies for the above rant, but again, to imply that it's okay to just blow off a handful of seasons is just not right in my book.  We pay money for this stuff (or reward points, whatever, you get the picture) and because of that, the product needs to be working as accurately as possible.  Just my two cents I guess.........

Posted by mullycj on 9/12/2010 8:48:00 AM (view original):
There used to be a pinned thread from Tarek that showed shooting %, 3pt%, and FT% for the three divisions vs NCAA.

I think the community would be interested in seeing those results for the current season accross worlds.  The general consesus is the current engine is out of whack and teams are shooting too high.     You obviously have a different view.

Please share with us the stats you see to support your view. 

I'm not sure that's a general consensus, nor do I think it needs to be completely in line with the real NCAA numbers.

As long as it's slightly out of whack across the board, what difference does it make?  That doesn't make it unfair.

Posted by dahsdebater on 9/12/2010 6:36:00 PM (view original):
As long as it's slightly out of whack across the board, what difference does it make?  That doesn't make it unfair.

This has nothing to do with fair or unfair.  By  your arguement the game could be completely broken and as long as it's broken for everyone, you'd be ok with it?

And I don't care about "slightly out of whack".  But I'd like to see the numbers for proof.    When the engine 1st came out I posted 3 PT FG %s in NCAA vs WIS and it showed the numbers were materially out of whack.  

Part of my reasoning for fg% being slightly out of whack is the new recruits are still in the engine.  They are going to have to be out of the game before we can look at the numbers and truly evaluate them because right now we have essentially two classes of super players compared to the new recruits.  Obviously shooting %'s will be higher than they will be when we have all the right players in the game.  In addition, I believe the general WIS player has not figured out how to play defense yet in this new engine.  I stumbled upon this theory because my d3 team (with mediocre and bad defensive ratings) was giving up some bad shooting % numbers in the high 50's but my d2 team, a team m2m team geared completely toward defense, was only giving up 41% shooting.  The team was full of freshman and sophomores with good and very good defensive ratings and decent ath/spd/reb.  This team made the NT and took some very, very good (lost to the national champion by 1 and then by 3 in OT) teams down to the wire and beat some other top 20 RPI teams.  Coaches simply haven't made the adjustment to commit to defense yet.  I'm sure most of the top coaches have already figured this out and when they are having success with high D rated players against other coaches, those other coaches will start to catch on and we'll see a shift to a world where defense is much more in demand than it is right now.  With the rise of defense and the lack of super players we'll see normal shooting %'s and a continuation of this very fun game.  Anyway, I'm kind of questioning whether I should be essentially telling people my strategy of recruiting high D players over the next couple seasons but then I realized probably about 2 people will even read to the bottom of this long *** post and those that do will probably dismiss me as a rambling fool.  I will now gladly step off my soap box.

Posted by tkimble on 9/12/2010 9:22:00 PM (view original):
Part of my reasoning for fg% being slightly out of whack is the new recruits are still in the engine.  They are going to have to be out of the game before we can look at the numbers and truly evaluate them because right now we have essentially two classes of super players compared to the new recruits.  Obviously shooting %'s will be higher than they will be when we have all the right players in the game.  In addition, I believe the general WIS player has not figured out how to play defense yet in this new engine.  I stumbled upon this theory because my d3 team (with mediocre and bad defensive ratings) was giving up some bad shooting % numbers in the high 50's but my d2 team, a team m2m team geared completely toward defense, was only giving up 41% shooting.  The team was full of freshman and sophomores with good and very good defensive ratings and decent ath/spd/reb.  This team made the NT and took some very, very good (lost to the national champion by 1 and then by 3 in OT) teams down to the wire and beat some other top 20 RPI teams.  Coaches simply haven't made the adjustment to commit to defense yet.  I'm sure most of the top coaches have already figured this out and when they are having success with high D rated players against other coaches, those other coaches will start to catch on and we'll see a shift to a world where defense is much more in demand than it is right now.  With the rise of defense and the lack of super players we'll see normal shooting %'s and a continuation of this very fun game.  Anyway, I'm kind of questioning whether I should be essentially telling people my strategy of recruiting high D players over the next couple seasons but then I realized probably about 2 people will even read to the bottom of this long *** post and those that do will probably dismiss me as a rambling fool.  I will now gladly step off my soap box.

For what it's worth, I read your whole post!! 

Posted by isack24 on 9/12/2010 5:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mullycj on 9/12/2010 8:48:00 AM (view original):
There used to be a pinned thread from Tarek that showed shooting %, 3pt%, and FT% for the three divisions vs NCAA.

I think the community would be interested in seeing those results for the current season accross worlds.  The general consesus is the current engine is out of whack and teams are shooting too high.     You obviously have a different view.

Please share with us the stats you see to support your view. 

I'm not sure that's a general consensus, nor do I think it needs to be completely in line with the real NCAA numbers.

i do think it is a general consensus. its important the sim engine behaves closely to real basketball so that real basketball strategy applies, etc... if there is a slight deviation from reality in the stats, i think that is acceptable, but it should definitely try to be minimized. there are also a number of factors that could push HD stats out of whack with reality - like, if people play - defenses more than + defenses, 3pta and 3pt% will reflect higher than the NCAA. but in general, we need the sim engine to mimick reality. in the extreme case, you could make it totally different, but i really struggle to believe anybody would play it then.

Posted by emy1013 on 9/12/2010 5:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by arssanguinus on 9/12/2010 9:47:00 AM (view original):
Are those stats really going to be entirely meaningful in any world that isn't completely populated with new recruits though?  Even if they might be interesting.

Doesn't matter if the world is populated with new all new recruits or not, the numbers need to be correct.  We had a situation in earlier worlds where there were pre-potential recruits and post-potential recruits mixed together for four seasons (I guess five if you include a few ineligibles).  That was a much different and much more complicated situation than we are looking at here, yet the numbers during those seasons with mix and match recruits were inline.

To imply that the numbers shouldn't matter for roughly four seasons while the old recruits cycle out shows one of two things (and I'm sorry to have to say this) (1) you're kind of out of touch with how this whole thing runs, or (2) you too often blindly defend WIS without thinking things through.  As I said, sorry for saying that, and I'm not trying to start an argument here, but again, to imply that the stats are "meaningless" because there are mixed and matched recruits (in essence saying that these four seasons could be screwed up, but we should deal with it because of the changes, is just unacceptable).  I don't pay my money to just play "meaningless" seasons, they need to be right, regardless of what kind of "recruits" are being used.

Frankly, EMy, thats impossible, unless you want them to field a new engine each for their Freshman, Sophomore , Junior and senior class until they haver all graduated and been replaced. . . 

]And Emy, you can kinda stick it with the :"Blindly defending WIS' excuse you use _every_ time.  Its a valid point, whether you like it or not, that the new recruits and the old recruits sharing space together are going to make the stats be different.  I wasn't rude, I wasn't condescending, I just made a simple point that the mix of old and new is going to effect the stats and you reacted like a jerk.   You can disagree if you like , but that won't make it not true, regardless of your attacking my motives for saying it..

Are you going to now attack TKIMBLE for being a blind defender, since he made essentially the same argument?  And then BIllyg?  I guess he's a blind defender too?

Posted by arssanguinus on 9/13/2010 7:39:00 AM (view original):

Posted by emy1013 on 9/12/2010 5:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by arssanguinus on 9/12/2010 9:47:00 AM (view original):
Are those stats really going to be entirely meaningful in any world that isn't completely populated with new recruits though?  Even if they might be interesting.

Doesn't matter if the world is populated with new all new recruits or not, the numbers need to be correct.  We had a situation in earlier worlds where there were pre-potential recruits and post-potential recruits mixed together for four seasons (I guess five if you include a few ineligibles).  That was a much different and much more complicated situation than we are looking at here, yet the numbers during those seasons with mix and match recruits were inline.

To imply that the numbers shouldn't matter for roughly four seasons while the old recruits cycle out shows one of two things (and I'm sorry to have to say this) (1) you're kind of out of touch with how this whole thing runs, or (2) you too often blindly defend WIS without thinking things through.  As I said, sorry for saying that, and I'm not trying to start an argument here, but again, to imply that the stats are "meaningless" because there are mixed and matched recruits (in essence saying that these four seasons could be screwed up, but we should deal with it because of the changes, is just unacceptable).  I don't pay my money to just play "meaningless" seasons, they need to be right, regardless of what kind of "recruits" are being used.

Frankly, EMy, thats impossible, unless you want them to field a new engine each for their Freshman, Sophomore , Junior and senior class until they haver all graduated and been replaced. . . 

]And Emy, you can kinda stick it with the :"Blindly defending WIS' excuse you use _every_ time.  Its a valid point, whether you like it or not, that the new recruits and the old recruits sharing space together are going to make the stats be different.  I wasn't rude, I wasn't condescending, I just made a simple point that the mix of old and new is going to effect the stats and you reacted like a jerk.   You can disagree if you like , but that won't make it not true, regardless of your attacking my motives for saying it..

Uhhh, for one thing, I have NEVER excused you of "blindly defending WIS" before (not once, and if you can show me where I HAVE stated this, I'll buy you a $100 GC.  If you can't, man up and buy me a $10 one, since you're so sure).  I think you're mistaking me for Daalter there jackass.  Get your **** straight........