versus real life - Hoops Dynasty

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I'll comment on #6, because it is something I've been advocating for a while now. Specific options I'd like to see:

1. When playing M2M or pressing, being able to specify a player on your team who you want guarding a specific opposing player every time both are on the court. (You can't always make this happen with depth charts alone because an opponent might shift a player across several positions over the course of a game or a season.)

2. Box-and-one defenses - If playing zone, you can specify a specific defender that you want on a specific opposing player any time that both are on the court.

3. Triangle-and-two defenses - same as (2) but with two defenders and two opposing players.

4. A pulldown menu for each player in the player game-planning screen that allows you to select a couple of opposing players so that if either of those opposing players is guarding your guy, his share of the offense (distribution) will be increased.

5. See (4), but for decreasing your distribution.

6. A sliding scale that selects just how closely you'd like your shot selection to mirror your specified distribution, versus shots coming naturally to players in the flow of the offense. This should also be adjustable at halftime, since your opponent might adjust his defense at halftime and you might not want to be funneling shots right into the teeth of his defense. "100" = follow distro as closely as possible, "0" means ignore it, and so forth.

IMO, real in-game coaching relies primarily on adjustments and on creating advantageous matchups. The ideas I've listed here are ways that I think we could mimic that a bit more in HD than is currently the case.

9/14/2010 10:00 AM

isack24

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I would also like to be able to go more -/+ on an individual player. There's no reason that my bigs have to push up if they're guarding someone on the outside just because my guards are. If the other team has two really good three-point shooting guards, and a great slashing SF, it's ludicrous that I have to pick my poison and have my entire defense shift one way or the other. I should be able to slack off the SF and push out on the guards.

9/14/2010 10:06 AM

isack24

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As for the point about matching real life as much as possible, I'm curious, OR, as to your feelings (I just had this discussion with billyg) on this: how can you have realistic results for things like two teams going uptempo fastbreak/press? Neither of those sets exist in real life the way they do in HD, and no team would ever be able to survive running uptempo full-court traps and breaks the entire game. So how can you reconcile unrealistic sets being forced to produce realistic results, and wouldn't forcing those sets to produce realistic results also skew the real sets into producing less realistic results, at least if we want the overall season averages to mimic real life?

9/14/2010 10:09 AM

obesecat

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isack i think the uptempo fastbreak/press is legitimate. It shouldn't work as well as it should, but not because of stamina. Most AAU teams run these sets and succeed very well. But if you have average passers breaking the press and getting a layup is easy. If you get the bucket, the fast break can't work as well then because teams need to pass the ball in, but off the rebound, you should be able to run the fast break.

9/14/2010 11:08 AM

a_in_the_b

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Posted by isack24 on 9/14/2010 10:06:00 AM (view original):
I would also like to be able to go more -/+ on an individual player. There's no reason that my bigs have to push up if they're guarding someone on the outside just because my guards are. If the other team has two really good three-point shooting guards, and a great slashing SF, it's ludicrous that I have to pick my poison and have my entire defense shift one way or the other. I should be able to slack off the SF and push out on the guards.

AMen.

9/14/2010 11:12 AM

colonels19

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IMO, HD doesn't have to mirror real life to be a good game. Hell I don't watch a great deal of college basketball until about conference tournament time, but I can and do enjoy HD pretty much year round now. To me, HD is easily the best CBB game running today and if further changes to advance toward realism will compromise the integrity of the game, cause more bugs/issues/complaints, etc, then it probably shouldn't be done. I'm currently not alarmed by anything in the engine, maybe other than the new recruits, but they're basically apart of the game now. I think we have enough problems with the recent timing issues than to look into this deeper, at least at the moment. As I always say though, I'll play HD however the majority of its users want it rolled out.

9/14/2010 11:13 AM

oldresorter

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As for the point about matching real life as much as possible, I'm curious, OR, as to your feelings (I just had this discussion with billyg) on this: how can you have realistic results for things like two teams going uptempo fastbreak/press? answer you can't for any one game - just like if you had a rex ryan / kurt shotenheimer run passing offense, you couldn't have realistic results versus the league average for NFL passing, other than it is real, they exist on the edges - if half the teams ran unrealistic stuff this may be an issue, but my sense is the average team in hd runs the game somewhat average, heck, near half the teams are sims, they run totally average pace and zero defense.

A couple of related things, some half theorized that the average defense in the game is about -1.5, which should cause 3pt shooting to be slightly higher, off rebounding to be slightly less, and 2pt fg% to be slightly less.

I would assume a pair of test teams could be rigged up that would represent absolute average, simmed vs each other 10,000 times, and a true fg% could be determined, sounds like a fun experiment. But, in leu of such a test, this is strictly opinion, if you look at naismith just completed d1, and look at fg% # 1 vs FG% last, and lay out the remaining 320 teams or so between them in a graph, I would guess a bell curve exists with a mean and a mode. The same can be done for real life NCAA. How do they compare? Same can be done for other stats. Same can be done for all std deviations.

Overall, I think this game would beat the pants off competing products in such a test. The purpose of my post is to urge the coaching population to try and keep it that way.

9/14/2010 11:18 AM

isack24

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"answer you can't for any one game - just like if you had a rex ryan / kurt shotenheimer run passing offense, you couldn't have realistic results versus the league average for NFL passing, other than it is real, they exist on the edges - if half the teams ran unrealistic stuff this may be an issue, but my sense is the average team in hd runs the game somewhat average, heck, near half the teams are sims, they run totally average pace and zero defense."

Absolutely. But when 1/4 of the teams (and probably more at the lower levels) are running press, which is an unrealistic full-game defensive set, why shouldn't the full-season averages reflect that lack of reality?

9/14/2010 11:42 AM

isack24

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Posted by obesecat on 9/14/2010 11:08:00 AM (view original):
isack i think the uptempo fastbreak/press is legitimate. It shouldn't work as well as it should, but not because of stamina. Most AAU teams run these sets and succeed very well. But if you have average passers breaking the press and getting a layup is easy. If you get the bucket, the fast break can't work as well then because teams need to pass the ball in, but off the rebound, you should be able to run the fast break.

There is absolutely no team in the history of college basketball that runs uptempo fastbreak/press the way it is used in HD.

AAU is totally, totally different, and even then, I've never seen an AAU team employ a 100% trapping defense in the halfcourt while also running a fcp. Maybe there are a few, but they certainly don't do it in college.

9/14/2010 11:44 AM

udm_mike

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Posted by isack24 on 9/14/2010 11:44:00 AM (view original):
Posted by obesecat on 9/14/2010 11:08:00 AM (view original):
isack i think the uptempo fastbreak/press is legitimate. It shouldn't work as well as it should, but not because of stamina. Most AAU teams run these sets and succeed very well. But if you have average passers breaking the press and getting a layup is easy. If you get the bucket, the fast break can't work as well then because teams need to pass the ball in, but off the rebound, you should be able to run the fast break.
There is absolutely no team in the history of college basketball that runs uptempo fastbreak/press the way it is used in HD.

AAU is totally, totally different, and even then, I've never seen an AAU team employ a 100% trapping defense in the halfcourt while also running a fcp. Maybe there are a few, but they certainly don't do it in college.

What did Loyola Marymount run? I thought they were constantly flying around the court, both on offense and defense.

9/14/2010 1:40 PM

isack24

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They eventually had to go into a legitimate halfcourt offense at some point, and they pressed off of makes, but didn't trap the entire game. No team could ever sustain that type of energy.

Even then, that's one team. Can you name a team that does it now? I can name some uptempo pressing teams, but nothing like what the HD press is.

9/14/2010 1:49 PM

girt25

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The HD full court press simply does not exist as a base defense in real-life college basketball.

9/14/2010 2:34 PM

gillispie

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i know i am repeating myself 100% from the thread on this yesterday (or whenever). but anyway, on point #3 (would like things to be as real life as possible), my take is that the actual simulation of the game, taking the ratings from the players on both teams and the game planning settings, needs to be as realistic as possible. for everything else, reality is of secondary concern (and i distant second at that) to what makes for a more enjoyable game. not only is it impossible to have a realistic recruiting scheme, but i feel it is pointless to try. similarly, firing logic, injuries, grades, and everything else that isn't the core game simulation, i can't think of a single scenario in the world in which i would prefer to see those more realistic instead of what is more enjoyable. for example, IRL, a great team can lose their star in the NT. but, that just sucks so much, why do that to anybody, ever? i am 100% in support of all players playing at 100 health for the entire post season.

anyway, on point #2, yes, people use this argument all the time on both sides. but, what is wrong with that? as long as you are consistent. sure, some people just do it to suit their point of view, and that is kind of ridiculous. but really i think it is totally inappropriate to 1) make every aspect of the game as realistic as possible, forsaking everything else, as well as 2) make every aspect of the game what users want totally forsaking reality. so to me i would expect most people to go both ways, although it would be nice if they used some guiding principles and remained consistent to those principles (which is definitely not always the case).

9/14/2010 2:45 PM

gillispie

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Posted by isack24 on 9/14/2010 1:49:00 PM (view original):
They eventually had to go into a legitimate halfcourt offense at some point, and they pressed off of makes, but didn't trap the entire game. No team could ever sustain that type of energy.

Even then, that's one team. Can you name a team that does it now? I can name some uptempo pressing teams, but nothing like what the HD press is.

personally, i am 100% in favor of a complete rehaul of the press to make something resembling real life. HD press is a joke. even when i played it exclusively (back when it was unstoppable, before the new engine), i always felt full court press should be taken out of the game and replaced with a variety of pressing options. i feel similarly about the fast break - to me, the fast break is something to play on top of the other core offenses.

that said, i don't expect HD to make every offense and defense. but the ones they do make, i would like to be realistic. there is only so much you can do, after all...

9/14/2010 2:48 PM

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