Posted by jordyclifton on 11/1/2010 2:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by girt25 on 11/1/2010 2:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by furry_nipps on 11/1/2010 8:50:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tkimble on 11/1/2010 12:23:00 AM (view original):
Hmmmm pump in your sitemail you said 3 HVs and 1 CV, but in that history it looks like 2 HVs and 2 CVs.  So let's do some math...
Working with these general assumptions: 1 CV=2.5 HV  Start=2 HV  Every 5 min increment= 1/2 HV, SV=1/10 HV, and taking a VERY conservative multiplier from A+ to B+ we'll make it 1.5.  I won't take into consideration the calls and such because I feel the have miniscule amount of value and an inordinate of calls/letters were not placed.

Pump's efforts in terms of HVs:
2 HVs=2
12 SVs=1.2
2 CVs=5
Start=2
15 min=1.5

Total:11.7

My efforts in terms of HVs:
6 HVs=9
1 SV=.15
1 CV=3.75
Start= 3
25 Min=2.5

Total: 18.4

So either some of those assumptions are WAYYYY off (I don't believe they are), the 11 calls+10 coach calls+8 letters account for more than 7 HVs, or my A- reputation has a ridiculously huge effect.  Anyway, I am still trying to figure it out.  A little bitter because I lost the guy (not a program changer and I only spent about a little more than 3k on the guy, so I'm not devasted), but more just puzzled.  I sent in a ticket, so we'll see what they say.  

Way off.. Both evals and calls have a lot of value and you are not giving them enough. Also, in div III/Div II prestige doesn't mean squat. His calls/letter/coach calls amount to about an extra CV. His 6 extra evals is worth bout 1.5 or 2 cv. That gives him pretty much 5 cv.

You think half a dozen calls and half a dozen letters are worth a campus visit? No way.

I have never really looked at the value of each tool in recruiting.  I just do what seems logical, and I have had very good recruiting classes. I just had the number #12 class at D2 Findley, and had # 34 at D1 ULL. In the past I had multiple top ten classes at D3 Wentworth and D2 BYU Hawaii.
maybe I'm just lucky when I recruit , but I always assumed that calls and letters where a nice worthwhile tool. But then again I may be wrong because I hear all the time that boosters are an effective tool, but I have never used on of those either, just seems dishonest.

If I where being recruited and school A offerd a scholly and brought me out to campus, and followed up with a visit to my home......I would be excited

school B does all those things, but also calls me and sends me letters each week reinforcing the fact they want me at there university. I'm going to school B because there is the impression that I am wanted more. They really care.

That is logical, and in real life (where visits are limited) may be effective.  And obviously - there are some value in calls and letters, and in your example, where schools A & B do the exact same things (and if they have the same prestige), the calls/letters might tip a battle.  But applying real life logic to HD in general (and recruiting specifically) can be dangerous.

Generally, that money can be more effectively spent elsewhere.  15 calls and 15 letters = $375 that would be much more effectively spent on a home visit for a local recruit.

Posted by coach_billyg on 11/1/2010 12:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by HalfAstros on 11/1/2010 10:07:00 AM (view original):
furry is just about right on.  

Once upon a time, the old admin said that if distance isn't a factor, the money/value ratio of all the recruiting tools is the same.

In my experience, that's pretty much true.  Just bring up a recruit 10 miles away from you and look at the prices - that will give you a pretty good idea of the relative value of each recruiting tool.

Of course, the values change a lot depending on distance, since the tools don't change price at the same rates, so knowing which to use at which distance gives you a significant advantage.

sorry, but this is such a severely egregious misrepresentation of fact that for the sake of those reading this thread, i just cannot allow it to stand uncontested -

old admin absolutely, positively, DID NOT SAY "if distance isn't a factor, the money/value ratio of all the recruiting tools is the same"

i believe i know exactly the instance you are speaking of. it was a low-level response to a question about the value of home and campus visits, if you should use all home visits or all campus visits or a mix, and admin said that it wasn't that big of a difference.

however, that statement by admin is so painfully misleading. we know for a fact that the value of a home visit is constant at all distances, same with campus visits, and that there are no diminishing returns. looking at different distances,
close distance, 300 vs 800, the ratio is 2.67
medium distance, 400 vs 1000, the ratio is 2.5
long distance, 700 vs 1300? (or is in 1200?), the ratio is 1.86
very long distance, 1300 vs 2000ish, the ratio is 1.54

this is a gigantic factor. pick any value between 1.54 and 2.67, and in some cases, the decision is one with massive ramifications. admin has proven time and time again he had become totally out of touch with the reality of this game at the highly competitive level. if you have no interest in being a good coach, then he gave good advice. but if you remember his representation of tempo, the +/- setting, and this instance, it should be abundantly clear that the top 5% of coaches were operating at a far higher level of detail and accuracy than the old admin was. he was looking at it from too high of a level - a level at which with a million factors in the game, none are very significant.

Not sure what you are disagreeing with so adamantly.  After calling out my "egregious misrepresentation of fact," you actually seem to agree with what I said.

Let me spell it out.

Call is worth about 10 "recruiting points"
Letter is worth about 15 points
ST is worth about 150 points
HV is worth about 300 points
CV is worth about 800 points 

Not saying those are perfect, but if you sum those up in a battle and factor in prestige you can usually call the winner pretty well.  It's certainly close enough to be a useful starting point for a newbie to experiment from.

The cost of each tool changes significantly depending on distance, but not the value.  And the costs do not change at at the same rate, so as you said, the cost/value ratio is a significant/gigantic factor depending on distance.

I thought that's what I said the first time.

halfastros - it was -
"Once upon a time, the old admin said that if distance isn't a factor, the money/value ratio of all the recruiting tools is the same."

which is a 100% contradiction with what you just said. isn't it? if the money to value ratio of all the tools is the same, then isn't it arbitrary which one you pick? which is completely false?

Posted by coach_billyg on 11/2/2010 9:01:00 PM (view original):
halfastros - it was -
"Once upon a time, the old admin said that if distance isn't a factor, the money/value ratio of all the recruiting tools is the same."

which is a 100% contradiction with what you just said. isn't it? if the money to value ratio of all the tools is the same, then isn't it arbitrary which one you pick? which is completely false?

No, you are ignoring the "if distance isn't a factor" part of the sentence.  

I read that as saying that for a guy 10 miles away (minimum cost), 3 CV ($2,400) gives you exactly the same recruiting value as 8 HV ($2,400), or 16 ST ($2,400).  

Of course distance IS a factor, nobody would argue that.  For a guy 500 miles away, or 1,500 miles away, you don't get the same value for money.  The recruiting value of the tools stays the same but the costs change.  Therefore, as you said, which tool you pick at a given distance can give you a big advantage.  That's the point I took from the original admin comment.

HA, if your theory is correct and your values are remotely accurate, then for any recruit more than 10 miles away calls would be the most effective recruiting tool.  I seriously doubt that is the case.  However, if you strongly believe it why not try recruiting exclusively with calls and letters and see what happens?  If your values are right you could gain a HUGE advantage since in the modern era of national calling plans postage and calling rates are identical anywhere inside the country...  One thing accurately represented in the game.

Are all evals worth the same?  Let's say 2 teams are battling for a kid.  The first team has to use 15 evals to get considered.  The second team has higher prestige and  the kid is already open to his efforts, but he decides to use 15 evals anyhow.  Does the kid see the same value in each instance?  Or does the team that needed to pull him down somehow penalized b/c the evals were used to get considering credit rather than used to sign the kid?

Posted by dahsdebater on 11/3/2010 4:38:00 AM (view original):
HA, if your theory is correct and your values are remotely accurate, then for any recruit more than 10 miles away calls would be the most effective recruiting tool.  I seriously doubt that is the case.  However, if you strongly believe it why not try recruiting exclusively with calls and letters and see what happens?  If your values are right you could gain a HUGE advantage since in the modern era of national calling plans postage and calling rates are identical anywhere inside the country...  One thing accurately represented in the game.

You can recruit guys with just calls/letters.  Depending on the recruit, you can sign a guy for a schollie and between $400 and $800 worth of calls/letters.
In D3, I have used this strategy several times to sign guys on the other side of the country. 

Back in the FREEHD era, I experimented with a number of free teams and recruited guys exclusively with one recruiting tool or another.  With guys within 100 miles, a schollie and $400-$800 of any recruiting tool gets the job done.  Furry can confirm this since I know he was doing the same thing.  But feel free to try it yourself.

I think what prevents you from using the call strategy in a battle is that recruits eventually get annoyed at calls/letter and stop accepting them.  If I remember correctly that starts happening somewhere around $1,200.

Posted by jdno on 11/3/2010 10:55:00 AM (view original):
Are all evals worth the same?  Let's say 2 teams are battling for a kid.  The first team has to use 15 evals to get considered.  The second team has higher prestige and  the kid is already open to his efforts, but he decides to use 15 evals anyhow.  Does the kid see the same value in each instance?  Or does the team that needed to pull him down somehow penalized b/c the evals were used to get considering credit rather than used to sign the kid?

Prestige is a multiplier, so the higher prestige team gets more credit for everything, but I doubt that there is a penalty for the evals used to pull-down vs used on a non-pulldown.

The disparity among veteran coaches as to what evals are worth are quite stunning.  In the thread I linked to on the first page in my initial posting on this topic, it was nearly unanimous that evals are basically worthless in a recruiting battle, much to my shock and dismay based on my experiences up to then.  Now it seems that some vets think an eval is worth almost half a HV.  And many coaches back then thought that evals used in a battle were pretty useless, esp. beyond any needed to pull a kid down.  The assumptions I used a year ago as to the relative value of evals vs. HVs vs. CVs seemed so different than what other vets assumed, I was pretty shocked.  It appears that each of us have opinions on the value of evals, but who knows if any of us are right.   Carry on...

I have recruited players with just calls and a schollie offer in d2.  I dont remember the exact amount that it takes to get them ****** but im pretty sure it was 100 calls or less

Posted by brip87 on 11/3/2010 2:01:00 PM (view original):
I have recruited players with just calls and a schollie offer in d2.  I dont remember the exact amount that it takes to get them ****** but im pretty sure it was 100 calls or less

I used to use this quite often at DII for local guys who would be a back up, but now i believe the call/letter limit is around 40 or 50 before the recruit tells you to stop. If i recall correctly, WIS made the change because calls/letters used to be one of the most effective pull down tools since they were so cheap and you could do so many of them as long as the player was willing to accept the calls/letters

Posted by notchflaw on 11/3/2010 11:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by brip87 on 11/3/2010 2:01:00 PM (view original):
I have recruited players with just calls and a schollie offer in d2.  I dont remember the exact amount that it takes to get them ****** but im pretty sure it was 100 calls or less

I used to use this quite often at DII for local guys who would be a back up, but now i believe the call/letter limit is around 40 or 50 before the recruit tells you to stop. If i recall correctly, WIS made the change because calls/letters used to be one of the most effective pull down tools since they were so cheap and you could do so many of them as long as the player was willing to accept the calls/letters

They only changed the call/letter behavior for backups/pull-downs (to prevent the call strategy), there was no change for recruits in your division.

I asked that specific question when they made the change and got a rare straight answer. 

7/24/2008 6:51 PM	Customer Support
Hey Scott, thanks for the follow up - the recruiting value of calls/letters has not changed UNLESS they are being made repeatedly to a recruit who has indicated that your program is a backup option. Let us know if you still have questions!

Posted by girt25 on 11/1/2010 2:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by furry_nipps on 11/1/2010 8:50:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tkimble on 11/1/2010 12:23:00 AM (view original):
Hmmmm pump in your sitemail you said 3 HVs and 1 CV, but in that history it looks like 2 HVs and 2 CVs.  So let's do some math...
Working with these general assumptions: 1 CV=2.5 HV  Start=2 HV  Every 5 min increment= 1/2 HV, SV=1/10 HV, and taking a VERY conservative multiplier from A+ to B+ we'll make it 1.5.  I won't take into consideration the calls and such because I feel the have miniscule amount of value and an inordinate of calls/letters were not placed.

Pump's efforts in terms of HVs:
2 HVs=2
12 SVs=1.2
2 CVs=5
Start=2
15 min=1.5

Total:11.7

My efforts in terms of HVs:
6 HVs=9
1 SV=.15
1 CV=3.75
Start= 3
25 Min=2.5

Total: 18.4

So either some of those assumptions are WAYYYY off (I don't believe they are), the 11 calls+10 coach calls+8 letters account for more than 7 HVs, or my A- reputation has a ridiculously huge effect.  Anyway, I am still trying to figure it out.  A little bitter because I lost the guy (not a program changer and I only spent about a little more than 3k on the guy, so I'm not devasted), but more just puzzled.  I sent in a ticket, so we'll see what they say.  

Way off.. Both evals and calls have a lot of value and you are not giving them enough. Also, in div III/Div II prestige doesn't mean squat. His calls/letter/coach calls amount to about an extra CV. His 6 extra evals is worth bout 1.5 or 2 cv. That gives him pretty much 5 cv.

You think half a dozen calls and half a dozen letters are worth a campus visit? No way.

Yeah, they are my main tool for local recruiting. Rather then paying over 1,000 for a visit I just drop a couple hundred worth of calls/letter/coach calls and it works just as good at a way lower price. Back when you could just spam calls and such it was such a great tool. I get my worth out of them still, but I can't just spam them and have a huge edge in a battle of any coach 400+ miles away anymore.

Posted by HalfAstros on 11/3/2010 11:16:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 11/3/2010 4:38:00 AM (view original):
HA, if your theory is correct and your values are remotely accurate, then for any recruit more than 10 miles away calls would be the most effective recruiting tool.  I seriously doubt that is the case.  However, if you strongly believe it why not try recruiting exclusively with calls and letters and see what happens?  If your values are right you could gain a HUGE advantage since in the modern era of national calling plans postage and calling rates are identical anywhere inside the country...  One thing accurately represented in the game.

You can recruit guys with just calls/letters.  Depending on the recruit, you can sign a guy for a schollie and between $400 and $800 worth of calls/letters.
In D3, I have used this strategy several times to sign guys on the other side of the country. 

Back in the FREEHD era, I experimented with a number of free teams and recruited guys exclusively with one recruiting tool or another.  With guys within 100 miles, a schollie and $400-$800 of any recruiting tool gets the job done.  Furry can confirm this since I know he was doing the same thing.  But feel free to try it yourself.

I think what prevents you from using the call strategy in a battle is that recruits eventually get annoyed at calls/letter and stop accepting them.  If I remember correctly that starts happening somewhere around $1,200.

He beat me to it. I battled a friend and tested it back in FreeHD ages. He used all campus visits, I used all coach/letter/calls and I won the battle while spending less money. Those are the only 2 things we used, and both had C- prestige. Now they are not as great, I still get my money worth. My caldwell team with 1 open 'ships beat out a coach with 4 who went all in, and I only used 1 campus visits and no home visits a few seasons back. We exchanged the effort I think, and he was surprised. His only responce was that prestige must have meant more then he thought, but it was just the calls/letters that out did it.

Posted by furry_nipps on 11/4/2010 10:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by girt25 on 11/1/2010 2:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by furry_nipps on 11/1/2010 8:50:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tkimble on 11/1/2010 12:23:00 AM (view original):
Hmmmm pump in your sitemail you said 3 HVs and 1 CV, but in that history it looks like 2 HVs and 2 CVs.  So let's do some math...
Working with these general assumptions: 1 CV=2.5 HV  Start=2 HV  Every 5 min increment= 1/2 HV, SV=1/10 HV, and taking a VERY conservative multiplier from A+ to B+ we'll make it 1.5.  I won't take into consideration the calls and such because I feel the have miniscule amount of value and an inordinate of calls/letters were not placed.

Pump's efforts in terms of HVs:
2 HVs=2
12 SVs=1.2
2 CVs=5
Start=2
15 min=1.5

Total:11.7

My efforts in terms of HVs:
6 HVs=9
1 SV=.15
1 CV=3.75
Start= 3
25 Min=2.5

Total: 18.4

So either some of those assumptions are WAYYYY off (I don't believe they are), the 11 calls+10 coach calls+8 letters account for more than 7 HVs, or my A- reputation has a ridiculously huge effect.  Anyway, I am still trying to figure it out.  A little bitter because I lost the guy (not a program changer and I only spent about a little more than 3k on the guy, so I'm not devasted), but more just puzzled.  I sent in a ticket, so we'll see what they say.  

Way off.. Both evals and calls have a lot of value and you are not giving them enough. Also, in div III/Div II prestige doesn't mean squat. His calls/letter/coach calls amount to about an extra CV. His 6 extra evals is worth bout 1.5 or 2 cv. That gives him pretty much 5 cv.

You think half a dozen calls and half a dozen letters are worth a campus visit? No way.

Yeah, they are my main tool for local recruiting. Rather then paying over 1,000 for a visit I just drop a couple hundred worth of calls/letter/coach calls and it works just as good at a way lower price. Back when you could just spam calls and such it was such a great tool. I get my worth out of them still, but I can't just spam them and have a huge edge in a battle of any coach 400+ miles away anymore.

I'm not suggesting that they can't be used as an effective tool or that they don't have any value. I'm saying that your thought that half a dozen calls + half a dozen letters equals a campus visit just isn't correct. That effort may equal a scouting trip, but it's very far from equaling a campus visit