Job Process - Hoops Dynasty | WhatIfSports.com

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Something for Seble to consider before making dramatic changes to recruit generation and the job hiring process:

Ill say this over and over and over until Im blue in the face; WIS need's to change part of the hiring logic to include only a schools baseline prestige. Current prestige should be meaningless in terms of jobs hirings. Meaning if a UNC is currently a B prestige school it should still be considered an A+ in terms of hiring since there will never be a shortage of coaches trying to get UNC. Once the job is filled the current prestige would still be used for recruiting since the school is on hard times.

By the same token, a midmajor who has seen their current prestige rise to the upper levels should still have their baseline prestige used when the coach leaves and the job becomes open. We this this occur over and over again where a coach builds a program, leaves to a bigger school and a Sim takes over destroying the team and hurting the conference generally. (As a recent example see what happened to Cal Riverside and Pacific when their coaches both bolted to the Big 12 in Naismith this season). No one is going to leave a Big 6 powerhouse to take over one of those schools; However, if baseline prestiges were used for job process more DI coaches would be eligible as would top tier DII coaches; this would allow the jobs to remain filled and would not have the impact of destroying the conference which is really the biggest disadvantage midmajors have - vacancies -

Many worlds have midmajor conferences that have consistently competed with the big boys and its no anything beyond getting coaches to stick around for a long enough time where prestiges rise and more money comes in. People want to look at recruit generation, but I contend the biggest problem is keeping the midmajors full.

12/6/2010 2:39 PM

oldresorter

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I hope you don't convince others of this.

Your argument is like assigning blame for a problem - say world hunger - on a wrong - say drug trafficing. Indeed, drug trafficing (job process) is wrong, but it won't cure world hunger (the regression of d1 fun and competitiveness) by fixing it. Recruit generation ruined d1 not the job process (world hunger I mean job process was around long before d1 was damaged)

12/6/2010 2:49 PM

brip87

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I may never play d1 again. It does suck. (really bad). Im not the greates coach but the only way to get the best players is at a big time school preiod. This cannot be argued. Yes there are diampnds in the rough. etc. To win consistently in d1 you HAVE to be at a big time program. Wiining the conf tourney every season to get a bid does not count. And to make it worse its easier to get a big time job from d2 then it is going from a d1 program.

12/6/2010 2:55 PM

mmt0315

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The fact you keep saying it and have said it since the first season of its implementation doesn't make it so. In fact there was no way to tell until things have cycled through 4 seasons of recruits but you made up your mind a long time ago. While no one, would ever question your experience or your committment to the game, you've had a bone to pick with the recruit generation since day one and look at DI strictly through the tunnel vision that recruit generation and recruit generation alone have caused problems at DI. As we discussed on the Big East thread its a multitude of issues. As was also seen in that converation many of the coaches agree with my position that the job hiring logic is so screwed up that its hurting the game. Also, and a much bigger issue than recruit generation is that people havent adjusted to the new recruits and are simply not recruiting properly in DI.

People coaching DI programs that lack the experience. Without calling people out specifically, there are A prestige teams in our conference for example that are recruiting players that barely belong in DII same goes for the Big 12 in Naismith. This has nothing to do with recruit generation and everything to do with an understanding of recruiting generally. This also applies to mid-majors. I just completed my first go around at a midmajor since the implementation of the new recruits, its given me an opportunity to closely review how others are recruiting. And Im sorry but many of the DI coaches at those schools dont grasp DI recruiting; they are getting in unwinnable battles with Big Six schools that have A+ prestige and are blowing their budgets on players they have no shot landing. They are also overextending themselves and inviting bigger schools to poach them. They then end up poaching DII schools at the last second to salvage something.

Instead of looking at themselves and saying what must I do differently, they now simply say its the recruit generation. In DI there are now battles everywhere for elite players and thats how it should be.

12/6/2010 3:03 PM

brip87

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The recruit generation does suck. OR isnt the only one that feels that way. Is it the cure all? I have no idea. The job process does suck. Should I be able to get a big six job with my d2 id before my d1 id? No f'n way. But thats the way it is. How should it be fixed? I have no idea but it needs to be priority #1. Prestige is worht a consideral amount in d1. Add that to the tourney winnings from the conf. And possible carryover. Why would any smart coach battle the big schools very often. There are a few cases I would but its pretty few. D1 sucks

12/6/2010 4:22 PM

mmt0315

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Posted by brip87 on 12/6/2010 4:22:00 PM (view original):
The recruit generation does suck. OR isnt the only one that feels that way. Is it the cure all? I have no idea. The job process does suck. Should I be able to get a big six job with my d2 id before my d1 id? No f'n way. But thats the way it is. How should it be fixed? I have no idea but it needs to be priority #1. Prestige is worht a consideral amount in d1. Add that to the tourney winnings from the conf. And possible carryover. Why would any smart coach battle the big schools very often. There are a few cases I would but its pretty few. D1 sucks

Brip youre missing the point of my post which was motivated by a simple premise - "DI sucks" - The remainder of that question is why does DI suck? OR - and others as you've mentioned believe it sucks simply because of recruit generation. My point is that statement couldn't be further from the truth. All the things you mentioned above are the result of midmajors being coached by 60-70% Sims and the remaining humans being unable to compete with Big 6 conferences which are typically 80% or more filled. As a result of those numbers Big Six conferences and schools have higher prestige and more teams making the tournament which leads to more money, so yes it is extremely difficult (but still not impossible) for those schools to compete with the Big 6 conferences. My point was that recruit generation is not whats causing this problem AND an even bigger part of the problem is the job hiring process.

Ill again point to the Big West. Since I was there over 10 seasons ago, we annually put multiple teams in the tournament and had multiple teams compete for National Titles including 2 seperate teams that one. Each year (even two seasons ago) the Big West had no problems taking recruits from the Pac 10. The reason for this is the conference was almost full of humans. However, as coaches moved on, their schools went to the Sim and the conference sufferred. Teams with A prestige were destroyed and not taked over until they returned to their D and D+ pretiges. Why did this happen? Because someone "qualified" to take over a Long Beach St. (Defending National Champion) would rather go to a Duke/Kentucky etc...LBS was ruined eventually being taken over when they hit a D+...Had their baseline prestige been used as the basis...some qualified DII coach wouldve happily taken over as LBS wouldve made a fine first job for most coaches looking to move to DI. As it stood the only people qualified werent interested because almost nobody moves from an Elite to a midmajor.

This happened to CSU Fullerton after I left to Kansas, CSU Northridge after Armst left to Pitt, Idaho after Starr went to Michigan St., LBS after Pork went to Kentucky and it will now happen to CSU Riverside (Also a National Champion) and Pacific after their coaches left this season to go to the Big 12...And you know what...its no coincidence that the Pac 10 had their best recruiting season in a long time as the two highest prestige schools in the Big West went Sim.

ORs analogy on the first page is terrible and irrelevant because yes while this job process issue was always there; the impact was simply masked by virtue of the overwhelming amount of 5-star players available in DI, no one battled, there was plenty for everyone and even if people didnt know how to recruit it didnt matter. But just like no one might realize the problems in food storage and improper crop techniques when rain is a plenty; they certainly will when a drought hits because bad farming and storage will no longer be masked by great harvesting conditions.

12/6/2010 4:55 PM

reinsel

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I think the recruit generation procesat D1 just needs to create a few more better potential players in the 25-100 at their position range. There are just a tiny bit too few, but its really not that bad. Smart coaches can still grab diamonds in the rough. Its weird now, the #67 SG can become a significantly better player than the #17 SG, which NEVER happened before. I like that aspect of it, that you can recruit maxed out players or project players if you aren't at the top where you can get both in the same guy.

12/6/2010 4:57 PM

brip87

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Another big issue is the damn early entry logic.

12/6/2010 4:59 PM

reinsel

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Agreed. It is SUPER screwy. Last year in Allen the NT champ didn't lose anyone, but poor Jackson state lost a guy. It just killls those mid-majors while the big guys can usually reload.

12/6/2010 5:15 PM

brip87

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Which then they have to rebuild so if they nont make the nt they cant get a big time job.

12/6/2010 5:20 PM

oldresorter

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mmt - just because you link something unlinkable to a problem can't make it so is the issue here. Matter of fact, your issue is impossible to link without making it up. I have not only said this would happen before it did, but it did happen, that is a huge difference.

This is basic cause and affect stuff - your issue is an important one, it just is not the cause of the problem, since your issue has been around for about 10 years, my issue came up the moment the recruits changed.

12/6/2010 5:58 PM

oldresorter

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Posted by mmt0315 on 12/6/2010 3:03:00 PM (view original):
The fact you keep saying it and have said it since the first season of its implementation doesn't make it so. In fact there was no way to tell until things have cycled through 4 seasons of recruits but you made up your mind a long time ago. While no one, would ever question your experience or your committment to the game, you've had a bone to pick with the recruit generation since day one and look at DI strictly through the tunnel vision that recruit generation and recruit generation alone have caused problems at DI. As we discussed on the Big East thread its a multitude of issues. As was also seen in that converation many of the coaches agree with my position that the job hiring logic is so screwed up that its hurting the game. Also, and a much bigger issue than recruit generation is that people havent adjusted to the new recruits and are simply not recruiting properly in DI.

People coaching DI programs that lack the experience. Without calling people out specifically, there are A prestige teams in our conference for example that are recruiting players that barely belong in DII same goes for the Big 12 in Naismith. This has nothing to do with recruit generation and everything to do with an understanding of recruiting generally. This also applies to mid-majors. I just completed my first go around at a midmajor since the implementation of the new recruits, its given me an opportunity to closely review how others are recruiting. And Im sorry but many of the DI coaches at those schools dont grasp DI recruiting; they are getting in unwinnable battles with Big Six schools that have A+ prestige and are blowing their budgets on players they have no shot landing. They are also overextending themselves and inviting bigger schools to poach them. They then end up poaching DII schools at the last second to salvage something.

Instead of looking at themselves and saying what must I do differently, they now simply say its the recruit generation. In DI there are now battles everywhere for elite players and thats how it should be.

MM - your making stuff up here, recruiting changed and d1 went down the tube - pretty factual - your issue has been around for ten years - also factual. Even if there was so reason to connect the two, which is far-fetched at best - the timing is about ten years to late to see the drop off - it does not take that long to recycle thru recruits - LOL

12/6/2010 6:04 PM

oldresorter

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MM - one last thing, then I will give you your thread back, no one cares anymore, about my point or yours ... d1 is a ghost town, not just in terms of open teams, there is almost no coaches corner activity in the average conference.

You have an issue that I wrongly flamed, we have what, 3 or 4 other coaches who bothered to chime in, in the old days a battle of wills like ours would attrack hundreds of other posts.

In fairness to your first issue, the no one cares has been going on for a long time too, IMO ever since potential was introduced and the first big batch of coaches quit the game, the interest level in the game has never recovered.

Now, I will give you your thread back, sorry for hi jacking it.

12/6/2010 6:08 PM

psuarva

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I don't totally get people's problem with recruiting in D1. The challenge of going to a small school with bad prestige is just like the challenge that exists in real life - you have to recruit against bigger schools with more money, and your lack of history kills you. Rarely does a small school become a consistent power. That is the fun of taking a D1 non-BCS school, with less than a C in this game. You have to take risks in recruiting, and become a master of the geographic dynamics around you. It's really hard, I am just starting to get a handle on who to approach and who to ignore.

if it was easy to take over a lousy program and start winning and recruiting better every year with no setbacks, the game would be stupid. I'll tell you what is not fun - it is some of the coaches I've seen who complain every time they lose a game or miss on a recruit, because they are impatient or don't understand basics of statistics, random numbers, and simulation. high D1 schools stealing recruits from lower D1 schools, an then low D1 in turn poaching D2, is part of reality and I like that in this game. It makes strategy important, and you have to budget carefully. If anything, I think recruiting should be shortened by 3-4 cycles.

The job process is pretty odd, I will admit that. I don't understand it completely, but I would think that, like in real life, your latest year or two count very heavily, followed by your entire body of work. Looking at only 4 years, and requiring all of them to be good, is not correct. I think it should be turned on its head, and D1 schools should actively make offers to good coaches. I also think there should be transparent "contract terms", with high D1 schools having very quick triggers to fire coaches who can't meet certain goals in X number of years (e.g. making the NT. but I think it should be a "soft" goal, where the school has some likelihood of keeping coaches who got close but did not meet the goal). I think you should be able to see who is in the running for jobs as well

12/6/2010 6:43 PM (edited)

mmt0315

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Posted by oldresorter on 12/6/2010 5:58:00 PM (view original):
mmt - just because you link something unlinkable to a problem can't make it so is the issue here. Matter of fact, your issue is impossible to link without making it up. I have not only said this would happen before it did, but it did happen, that is a huge difference.

This is basic cause and affect stuff - your issue is an important one, it just is not the cause of the problem, since your issue has been around for about 10 years, my issue came up the moment the recruits changed.

What exactly happened? All youve said is DI got worse, youve never explained how or why recruit generation has impacted it. I just entered my first season at DI BYU and brought in the #11 ranked class with a D+ prestige. People arent adjusting to the new recruits and thats a major problem. I saw such wacky things going on in the midmajor recruiting which had nothing to do with recruit generation and everything to do with people not knowing what they are doing. People like the easy way out so they quit, as they do with anything anytime change is introduced.

12/7/2010 6:52 AM

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