Posted by moy23 on 12/7/2010 8:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by oldresorter on 12/7/2010 7:46:00 PM (view original):
the saddest part of this whole mess, there are only about a dozen coaches who even give a crap left, in the old days there would be hundreds of posts over such an issue, in some ways, all 8 or 10 of us posting here are indeed a dying breed... hence my comment, I really don't care.

I like some of the new sorts we have gotten, I hope we get more of that 'sort' (couoldn't resist the pun) of thing
concur... I truly don't care as much as I used to.  As long as the game is fun for me I will play... when its not fun I will stop.  bottom line - no rant, no rave - silent exit.  It's nice to see more of the newer coaches post with some fresh POVs. I think too many of us vets cling to the 'old ways' too much.   
I agree with that, the sad part is, the recruit gen change has helped the vets at the expense of the newer coaches. 

I said day 1, the recruit gen change would not harm me, it really has not, I think it is the responsibility of the vets to try to do the right thing, in this case, the recruit gen thing has only helped the vets, not just in d1 either, at all levels.  You should see some of the d2/d3 recruits guys are getting, you think that is new coaches getting those 700 level d3 recruits guys are bragging about - or 800 level d2 recruits?

12/7/2010 8:16 PM
Posted by oldresorter on 12/7/2010 8:09:00 PM (view original):
km - i find your ? funny - since I totally refuted the job process vs d1 demise issue, hit me up on the how great the change is vs d1's demise.

If the game were better, why are so many people leaving it?  That is a ? - your comment that there is not doubt that the game is better - well - yes - there is doubt - my gosh - there is no doubt 2 + 2 is 4, but no doubt the game which is failing is better, yes there is doubt.

I felt the old game with the higher ratings, required a d1 skill that d2/d3 did not require.  Now all three division sim pretty much the same.

But, that is irrelevant.  The fail is other than the top 20 or so players at each position, there is very little differentiation between the next 200-250 players by position, hence the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

By the way, there are some fixes for the game, that would give you the d2/d3 game in d1, without totally ruining the game for all d1 coaches other than a handful, many of whom by the way are posting here - LOL.  But I doubt seble is smart enough to figure it out, and I would never volunteer to tell him.
people are leaving because of human nature. i touched on it in my last post but since it appears to have been glossed over i'll elaborate. FWIW i brought up behavioral economics a few months ago as well...

many of us have heard of a study that was performed at Duke not too long ago and published in the WSJ. students who won final four tickets were asked to put a price on their tickets; the average asking price was in the ballpark of $2,400. the students would explain that going to the game is a "once-in-a-lifetime" experience and was worth a great amount of money.

students who did not win final four tickets were asked how much they would be willing to pay for a ticket; they were willing to pay about $175. when asked to justify their offer, they claimed that "the money that would be spent on the tickets could be used on other things, like CDs" etc. the moral of the story is that we place more emphasis on what we might lose than what we might gain.

this relates to HD in that when recruiting is changed, you have some positive aspects (increased recruit realism) and negative aspects (lack of a pool in general). even if the positive aspects outweigh the negative ones, meaning that the game is BETTER, many players will FEEL like the game is worse simply because what they lose is valued more than what they gain.

i havent seen WIS's numbers for how many new users come to a game after an update, but without advertising to the masses i highly doubt the number is very high. improving the quality of HD does more to simply please the current players than attract new ones, as the new ones have still never heard of the game. what you get is every change that doesnt dramatically improve the game results in a lot of players leaving. incorporate a snowball effect of increased vacancy hurting the game and voila, our current situation.

also factoring in is the topic of baselines. without getting into examples, the fact that all the old players were used to players with 90+ core ratings makes 60-70 core ratings seem crappy (and it will take a very long time for the mental baseline to drop into the 60s, no matter what. in reality, if hakeem olajuwon is 99, i think quality big men in d1 are in the 60s). what you get here is a positive (more realistic ratings) feels like a negative to a LOT of people (because their baselines are set artificially high).

i think, to a certain extent, seble understands this. it is because of this that he doesnt follow the every wish and whim of the masses. the real issue is lack of advertising, as that's the ONLY WAY to repopulate these worlds, ESPECIALLY given the majors tweaks that have taken place and will take place.
12/7/2010 10:01 PM (edited)
The great D2 and D3 recruits aren't a result of vet coaches taking advantage of the new recruit generation they are a result of less people playing the game thus the worlds above being less populated. Meaning D2 coaches have a larger pool of D1 players to pulldown and D3 coaches have a larger pool of D2 players to pull down. Which is why in the even less populated worlds like Phelan and Knight the best D2 and D3 teams are far more talented than the other worlds. For example last season in Phelan I started 5 players at my D2 school who were over 700 overall and 1 was over 800. That wouldn't happen if the world was more populated and has nothing to do directly with recruit generation.

I also don't understand how the game was better when every high level D1 team had not just comparable talent but pretty similar players over now when the talent is still comparable but teams look a lot of different. Not only is it about putting together the best team but also getting the parts to work well which makes coaching even more important in this engine then the old.
12/7/2010 10:05 PM
I'm curious as to how age affects our opinions on the changes. I have a hunch the under 30 crowd has a more positive attitude towards the changes than the over 30 crowd. Just seems it's human nature to reject change as you get older.
12/7/2010 10:13 PM
kmason, the fact that top d2 players are quite good is something you use to suggest there isn't a problem. to me, that is the crux of the problem. as OR said, after the top 20 or so, there is little differentiation among the next hundred. there in lies the problem. plain and simple, if, every season, a medium or better big 12 school is taking the top targets of d2 schools, something is seriously wrong. nobody is asking for there to be a hundred maxed out guys. we just want some separation. i would argue d2 and d3 schools need to be beaten down a bit on talent to achieve that. anyway, was it three seasons ago your a- prestige WVA team took a recruit off little old SIUE? this season multiple players went to a- prestige louisville, a very competently ran team at the least, who would have otherwise potentially went to schools in my d2 conference. in history, how many players have decided between a louisville and a high end d2 school? it just doesn't make any sense. the old system of 100 maxed out guys was stupid - that is why i supported seble's recruit generation change. but there is a happy medium.
12/7/2010 10:17 PM
Having coached as many D1 BCS seasons as anyone in this thread (with the exception of OR and maybe Moy), I sure would like to know where all these 99 Ath/99 Spd/99 Def, maxed out in the cores guards have been for all the time I've been coaching.  My BCS teams are usually always high to very high prestige teams and in all my seasons at that level, I've managed to recruit TWO guards who would have fit that description.  And for what it's worth, neither one of them could shoot.  And fellas, I try my best to bring in the stud players (often times to the detriment of my teams).

I'm gonna leave my opinions about recruit generation and the job process out of this, but to any coach who has yet to make it to a BCS conference, please don't believe the statements that every team in a BCS conference had/has one or two of these guards because it is complete and utter nonsense.  In fact, it may be the single biggest "forum fact" I've seen in my 4 and 1/2 years of playing this game.

That's all I have to say on this issue, but I'm sorry, every time I read about every BCS team having a roster of maxed out players, it makes me sick to my stomach.....back to the original topic.
12/7/2010 10:22 PM
Posted by mmt0315 on 12/7/2010 4:59:00 PM (view original):
This is going to have to be short because I just finished drafting a 20 page document and frankly my head is spinning.

1) I think something that is being overlooked is Billy's and ORs position rests on a flawed foundation. Namely, youre assuming that DI is F*^%ed up when that is nothing more than your opinion. Respectfully, the fact you guys have won a combined bazillion games and a gazillion titles doesnt make your opinion fact.  For every person that thinks DI is somehow F%$^ED up as a result of the new recruit generation there is another who likes the new recruiting process.  For every person who thinks DI is F(*&ED up there is a person like me who wont go near DII or DIII because of precisely the same reasons surrounding recruiting (IE recruiting at those levels is non competitive, the talent sucks and I cant get my head onto the idea of rosters composed of what seems like walk ons)...And trust me I tried joining a DIII conference recently and despite it being one of the most active conferences around I couldnt stand what a joke (how easy) recruiting was and the overall gameplay experience...there are others that feel the same way, Sully712 who I speak to daily comes to mind.

2) When Billy talks about recruits and the challenges faced in recruiting certain players there is an inherent incorrectness to his analysis. Namely, he is still viewing recruiting under the old system. For one, and based on his success in this game, Im assuming that for the most part the majority of his recruiting at DII was based on pull downs or drop downs. Meaning at DII he was recruiting DI talent. Well, based on people's complaints this type of recruiting might no longer be possible. An ajdustment has to be made in terms of what expectations a DII coach can and should expect in regard to what talent it brings in and from where that talent is coming from.

3) People are still looking at DI players in terms of ratings used under the old recruit generation. Granted that superstars still exist but they are fewer and dar between.  That being said, previously where a backup player may have had an average overall rating of 680-700; now with the new system back up players will be rated much lower, this is accounted for by finding high potential guys AND more importantly, the fact that the lower ratings are consistent across the board. 

4) The numbers (I believe last time Mully pulled them this was the case) suggests that the jobs in DI have remained pretty consistent for a while now with either no or minimal drop off. The reason is that while veterans left others have joined OR people like me who dropped several teams are slowly reaquiring them. As far as the lack of activity on the forums and CC, I think as OR candidly admitted this was a preexisting problem not related to recruiting and seem across the various divisions.  Frankly, I am active on all my CCs but tend to shy away from the forums because I no longer feel they are a place for open and civil discourse as they used to be.  Certain users think the louder and more insulting they can be, somehow validates what they are saying.

5) Jet made a valid point wherein he said with any change people are going to be unhappy and will leave the game. Every major change has seen it and will continue to see it.

6)  One last thing I'd like to point out. The difficulty at DI, is where I think a big difference of opinions has developed regarding DI being Fed up. I will happily concede that the changes in recruit generation have made the game more difficult for midmajors (although I stand by the position that the game has always been more difficult for midmajors) and even that much more difficult for rebuilds in Big 6 conferences (although that was never an easy task either).  However, here is where the difference presents itself, people like me think this difficulty is good for the game. I love seeing the blood shed in recruiting and knowing that conference mates must battle as do schools in other regions, I like that smaller schools cant be greedy and think a bigger school wont jump in on their recruits if spread to thin (there are never ending fights on CCs regarding in conference battles and "poaching" which is great, I love the fact a midmajor needs to put in work to be relevant on the national scence (although I hate that the hard work can be so easily torn down simply as a result of a coach leaving), I like that I have the ability to recruit different skill sets and needs and can now expose other schools weaknessed because there arent 200 Cs who have maxed out skills at every position, I also like that schools that continously bring in the best players can almost certainly expect that few of those players will stay over the course of 4 seasons (although I wish it would be a bit more predictable).  The bottom line is if given the choice between the old system where all players looked the same, recruiting was more like a draft and this system, Ill take this one everytime. 

That doesn't make me right, because after all its just my opinion, but my point is it doesnt make the others right either, atleast until Im shown something other than I said it before and Ive been proven right. There is another thread regarding midmajors in the tournament and it seems theyve remained pretty much consistent since October.

EDIT --- Evidently it wasnt as short as I initially anticipated!! :)

MMT - a couple things. 
1) this makes absolutely 0 sense. my position is that d1 is fucked up, in your words. it is not based on the foundation of d1 being fucked up. that is the conclusion. the foundation is that a- prestige d1 schools compete with a- prestige d2 schools for players. if that is wrong, then proceed with your argument. but otherwise, you are implying circular logic and i don't see it one bit.

2) i am not viewing recruiting based on the old system. i am not sure where that comes from. regardless, you are totally wrong, d2 schools still recruit vastly from the d1 pool. if not more so than before. my expectation at my d2 school is not of a talent level. drop my ratings by 20 across the board, i am fine with that. my expectation is that i will be competing with other d2 schools, and the bottom half of d1 schools for players. not top 25 d1 programs, and that is the case today. as mentioned, i have signed multiple players at SIUE who were significantly BETTER than some of the guys on my championship kentucky team. please, tell me how i am viewing recruiting under the old system. is it unreasonable to expect that my d2 team who couldn't win the championship should not have multiple players better than the bottom end of my d1 team who did win the championship? i mean seriously. if we can't agree there, then we are clearly on different planets here.

3) you are the one who keeps talking about comparing to old recruit generation's players. i can't speak for everyone arguing against the recruit generation, but its pretty obvious that the crux of my concern is with the RELATIVE value of the players. if you could consider this in relative terms, i think you would see where myself and others are coming from.

6) if you have even the slightest inclination that changes that make the game more challenging are intrinsically going to rub me the wrong way, then please, give me some of what you are smoking :)
12/7/2010 10:29 PM
Posted by kmasonbx on 12/7/2010 10:13:00 PM (view original):
I'm curious as to how age affects our opinions on the changes. I have a hunch the under 30 crowd has a more positive attitude towards the changes than the over 30 crowd. Just seems it's human nature to reject change as you get older.
just as it is human nature to be selfish, short sighted, and immature if you are less than 30 - of course not - that sort of biased, discrimination that you are expounding is embarrassing, you should be ashamed of yourself.
12/7/2010 10:34 PM
Posted by oldresorter on 12/7/2010 10:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kmasonbx on 12/7/2010 10:13:00 PM (view original):
I'm curious as to how age affects our opinions on the changes. I have a hunch the under 30 crowd has a more positive attitude towards the changes than the over 30 crowd. Just seems it's human nature to reject change as you get older.
just as it is human nature to be selfish, short sighted, and immature if you are less than 30 - of course not - that sort of biased, discrimination that you are expounding is embarrassing, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Gotta agree with you there OR, that was a pretty bad generalization to throw out there Mason. .  I've actually found that the farther I get away from 30 (since that's apparently the arbitrary number we're using), that's it's been exactly opposite for me and I've been more accepting of change.  Mason, just curious, which side of the "over/under 30" line do you fall on?  
12/7/2010 10:41 PM
Gil I understand the point both you and OR are trying to make but I disagree. I think looking at it like solid BCS schools are taking recruits from top notch D2 schools is the wrong way to look at it. The fact is the lower level D1 schools should've never given the D2 schools a chance to get those recruits and the lower levels of D1 are so unpopulated now it allows D2 schools to get players they would not be able to if it were more populated. The fact that the guy I took from you is one of the 3 players in the Big East with 90sp and 90per (a few others are close) shows that there is no reason why a mid major program shouldn't have gone after him. If I could barely fight off a D2 school for him how easily would any D1 have beaten me out? 

Another change that is often overlooked that even I have been overlooking on this topic is along with the new recruit generation it has actually allowed D2 schools to pull down better players then in the old engine. In the old engine unless a SF was within 70 miles you had pretty much no chance of pulling anybody down that was rated better than 130 or so at their position and sometimes you'd struggle to pull guys down rated below 180 at their position. Now guys rated in the 170s at their position pop up on the D2 lists of the A+ schools and you can easily pull down guys in the low 100s, so not only are the worlds themselves less populated but D2 schools have even greater reach on who they can pull down.

Another minor reason for D2 schools grabbing more talented players could be with the forums being less active and less helpful information being spread the coaches at the lower levels of D1 aren't as good as they were in the past and as a result don't do as good of a job in recruiting.
12/7/2010 10:43 PM
Posted by dcy0827 on 12/7/2010 10:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by oldresorter on 12/7/2010 10:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kmasonbx on 12/7/2010 10:13:00 PM (view original):
I'm curious as to how age affects our opinions on the changes. I have a hunch the under 30 crowd has a more positive attitude towards the changes than the over 30 crowd. Just seems it's human nature to reject change as you get older.
just as it is human nature to be selfish, short sighted, and immature if you are less than 30 - of course not - that sort of biased, discrimination that you are expounding is embarrassing, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Gotta agree with you there OR, that was a pretty bad generalization to throw out there Mason. .  I've actually found that the farther I get away from 30 (since that's apparently the arbitrary number we're using), that's it's been exactly opposite for me and I've been more accepting of change.  Mason, just curious, which side of the "over/under 30" line do you fall on?  
The good side, lol.
12/7/2010 10:44 PM
Posted by emy1013 on 12/7/2010 10:22:00 PM (view original):
Having coached as many D1 BCS seasons as anyone in this thread (with the exception of OR and maybe Moy), I sure would like to know where all these 99 Ath/99 Spd/99 Def, maxed out in the cores guards have been for all the time I've been coaching.  My BCS teams are usually always high to very high prestige teams and in all my seasons at that level, I've managed to recruit TWO guards who would have fit that description.  And for what it's worth, neither one of them could shoot.  And fellas, I try my best to bring in the stud players (often times to the detriment of my teams).

I'm gonna leave my opinions about recruit generation and the job process out of this, but to any coach who has yet to make it to a BCS conference, please don't believe the statements that every team in a BCS conference had/has one or two of these guards because it is complete and utter nonsense.  In fact, it may be the single biggest "forum fact" I've seen in my 4 and 1/2 years of playing this game.

That's all I have to say on this issue, but I'm sorry, every time I read about every BCS team having a roster of maxed out players, it makes me sick to my stomach.....back to the original topic.

Really emy? That's surprising I felt like when I was at Hampton everytime I played an A/A+ team they had at least 1 99/99 guard or something very close. The season I went to the Final 4 I played Washington St. who had 1 guard with 100ath/99sp and the other guard was 99/99. You were at UCLA at the time maybe you remember, or maybe your old age has made you forget, lol.

12/7/2010 10:48 PM
Posted by oldresorter on 12/7/2010 10:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kmasonbx on 12/7/2010 10:13:00 PM (view original):
I'm curious as to how age affects our opinions on the changes. I have a hunch the under 30 crowd has a more positive attitude towards the changes than the over 30 crowd. Just seems it's human nature to reject change as you get older.
just as it is human nature to be selfish, short sighted, and immature if you are less than 30 - of course not - that sort of biased, discrimination that you are expounding is embarrassing, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Maybe it's just the old people I know.
12/7/2010 10:49 PM
Posted by emy1013 on 12/7/2010 10:22:00 PM (view original):
Having coached as many D1 BCS seasons as anyone in this thread (with the exception of OR and maybe Moy), I sure would like to know where all these 99 Ath/99 Spd/99 Def, maxed out in the cores guards have been for all the time I've been coaching.  My BCS teams are usually always high to very high prestige teams and in all my seasons at that level, I've managed to recruit TWO guards who would have fit that description.  And for what it's worth, neither one of them could shoot.  And fellas, I try my best to bring in the stud players (often times to the detriment of my teams).

I'm gonna leave my opinions about recruit generation and the job process out of this, but to any coach who has yet to make it to a BCS conference, please don't believe the statements that every team in a BCS conference had/has one or two of these guards because it is complete and utter nonsense.  In fact, it may be the single biggest "forum fact" I've seen in my 4 and 1/2 years of playing this game.

That's all I have to say on this issue, but I'm sorry, every time I read about every BCS team having a roster of maxed out players, it makes me sick to my stomach.....back to the original topic.
i just pulled an old list i used in recruiting one of the last seasons before the new recruit generation...

its a list of 148 SF/PF/C d1 recruits and their FSS potentials. using 25 estimated improvement for a player with "high" potential:

3 players projected above 93 in ATH/2 projected to 100
2/0 in SPD
29/15 in REB (remember, that's 15 projected to hit 100 using 25 for a high potential estimate. ridiculous.)
43/13 in DE
25/12 in LP
2/1 in PE

i didnt bother to rank guards in excel that year.

when you take into account TREMENDOUS potential you can probably add a few to each list for players that had the potential to hit 100 in each category.

again, that's just 148 d1 prospects for SF/PF/C from New England or something like that.
12/7/2010 10:54 PM
Posted by emy1013 on 12/7/2010 10:22:00 PM (view original):
Having coached as many D1 BCS seasons as anyone in this thread (with the exception of OR and maybe Moy), I sure would like to know where all these 99 Ath/99 Spd/99 Def, maxed out in the cores guards have been for all the time I've been coaching.  My BCS teams are usually always high to very high prestige teams and in all my seasons at that level, I've managed to recruit TWO guards who would have fit that description.  And for what it's worth, neither one of them could shoot.  And fellas, I try my best to bring in the stud players (often times to the detriment of my teams).

I'm gonna leave my opinions about recruit generation and the job process out of this, but to any coach who has yet to make it to a BCS conference, please don't believe the statements that every team in a BCS conference had/has one or two of these guards because it is complete and utter nonsense.  In fact, it may be the single biggest "forum fact" I've seen in my 4 and 1/2 years of playing this game.

That's all I have to say on this issue, but I'm sorry, every time I read about every BCS team having a roster of maxed out players, it makes me sick to my stomach.....back to the original topic.
emy - I think my talent has always been acquiring top players when recruiting in HD.   I used to get a lot of 90/90 BH/PAS frosh PGs, 90/90 REB/LP Bigs.... out of the gate. The cores were pretty high.... so much that all the cores would be maxed by soph year.  I'm not talking about ATH/SPD since I personally value those skills slightly less than the aforementioned.  The biggest diff I see now is that these cores for 'elites' start lower (which means they max out at 99s later in their career) and I can't for the life of me recruit a 12 man team (and if I do - I can't get enough PT for all 12).  With less 'elites' more teams have been targeting my players which has really limited my ability to fill the roster.  My days of signing a top 5 position player for $5k are over.  i'm now spending about $20-30k minimum to get these guys.  just my experience - I'm not saying you are wrong.  Also - I do agree not all bcs had these maxed out frosh players.... maybe most A prestiges did.  I've always believed the hardest place to coach is the C prestige bcs schools because they can't keep up with the joneses in their own conf.  
12/8/2010 12:49 AM (edited)
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