Reboundign clarification Topic

oldresorter
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Posted by jwilli7122 on 1/14/2011 3:25:00 PM (view original):
"You really don't need to figure team rebounds first, you could just weight by the factors, which might include position and throw them all in a pool...that assumes that you have never played basketball and don't realize that everyone contributes to rebounding by blocking out, getting into the scrum, diving on the floor, pushing, shoving, biting and gouging - but in theory you could eliminate your teammates from the equation, and the weighted math would work individually"

as far as i can tell there is no difference.  one method does not factor in team play more than the other.  they are differently phrased versions of exactly the same method
it depends, if you recalculate who gets the rebound differently than which team does, then it might.   But I agree with you, there is a way that it would be identical, matter of fact, if I wrote the program, I probably would do it all at once, the more I think about it, there would be several ways a 'team' factor could be incorporated into the single equation.

With how much flexibility you have writing code, there are a near infinite number of ways this stuff could be done and well, the old board game stuff was very, very limited
1/14/2011 3:29 PM
isack24
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"With how much flexibility you have writing code, there are a near infinite number of ways this stuff could be done and well."

Maybe someone should think about doing that, then, because it doesn't seem like anyone is now.

I think quite a few people believe rebounding has been off since the new engine's rollout.  If there's a better way to do it, maybe someone could mention that to seble.
1/14/2011 3:37 PM
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Posted by isack24 on 1/14/2011 3:37:00 PM (view original):
"With how much flexibility you have writing code, there are a near infinite number of ways this stuff could be done and well."

Maybe someone should think about doing that, then, because it doesn't seem like anyone is now.

I think quite a few people believe rebounding has been off since the new engine's rollout.  If there's a better way to do it, maybe someone could mention that to seble.
isack - rebounding has always been a bit controversial, what is off in your opinion right now?
1/14/2011 3:46 PM
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Posted by oldresorter on 1/14/2011 3:29:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jwilli7122 on 1/14/2011 3:25:00 PM (view original):
"You really don't need to figure team rebounds first, you could just weight by the factors, which might include position and throw them all in a pool...that assumes that you have never played basketball and don't realize that everyone contributes to rebounding by blocking out, getting into the scrum, diving on the floor, pushing, shoving, biting and gouging - but in theory you could eliminate your teammates from the equation, and the weighted math would work individually"

as far as i can tell there is no difference.  one method does not factor in team play more than the other.  they are differently phrased versions of exactly the same method
it depends, if you recalculate who gets the rebound differently than which team does, then it might.   But I agree with you, there is a way that it would be identical, matter of fact, if I wrote the program, I probably would do it all at once, the more I think about it, there would be several ways a 'team' factor could be incorporated into the single equation.

With how much flexibility you have writing code, there are a near infinite number of ways this stuff could be done and well, the old board game stuff was very, very limited
I was getting ready to start teaching my players how to roll 6-6 for the best results!
1/14/2011 3:47 PM
isack24
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Posted by oldresorter on 1/14/2011 3:46:00 PM (view original):
Posted by isack24 on 1/14/2011 3:37:00 PM (view original):
"With how much flexibility you have writing code, there are a near infinite number of ways this stuff could be done and well."

Maybe someone should think about doing that, then, because it doesn't seem like anyone is now.

I think quite a few people believe rebounding has been off since the new engine's rollout.  If there's a better way to do it, maybe someone could mention that to seble.
isack - rebounding has always been a bit controversial, what is off in your opinion right now?
I simply think not enough weight is actually given to the rebound rating itself, nor is there enough penalty for playing heavy + press or zone defenses.

I think in an effort to reduce overall variance, seble reduced important aspects of the ratings, although that's just a hunch.  In fairness, I use a man defense, and recruit (usually) good-to-high ath/high reb bigs, so I expect to have a nice advantage most of the time. 

I have a feeling that ath affects rebounding a little too much, and that the defense being played isn't affecting it enough.  Like I said, however, that's just a hunch.  But when I see my good rebounding, man defense teams consistently giving up a similar offense rebounding percentage to teams playing a +2 press with inferior reb ratings, I get a little cranky.
1/14/2011 4:14 PM
jwilli7122
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there's nothing worse than people complaining about variance.   i sure hope that seble doesn't change the game significantly because of those complaints
1/14/2011 10:51 PM
ike1024
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Who is complaining about variance?

1/15/2011 6:13 AM
oldresorter
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Posted by ike1024 on 1/15/2011 6:13:00 AM (view original):

Who is complaining about variance?

ike - you actually want more variance I would guess. either directly or indirectly at least.

I just read the preview of my son's college team's game today, UWGB leads the horizon league in rebounding differential, +3.9, that does not seem like much versus this game or even intuitively, does not seem like much, does it?
1/15/2011 9:03 AM
mullycj
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Good post OR.  I've been in the same camp as Isack for a long time now but Seble threw out some numbers to me about the rebound differential of the top college teams vs WIS.

I am beginning to think the old rebound differentials may have been too high and we just got used to them and now when we see our games we think something is wrong.

 

1/15/2011 10:26 AM
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my issue with the REB deficiency (as i see it) is that it has taken a key element of ratings out of play-- it's largely a d3 issue, maybe somewhat at d2. 

in d3, you can have 20+ advantages o in REB across the boards, and ~same ATH/SPD, and see no rebounding advantage. This happens on a regular basis, and most good d3 programs have essentially given up on REB as a recruitable metric.

In d1 the difference in REB ratings simply isn't there. You can't get mad when your 99 REB guy doesn't crush the other team's 89-92 guy.
1/15/2011 10:37 AM
ike1024
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Posted by oldresorter on 1/15/2011 9:03:00 AM (view original):
Posted by ike1024 on 1/15/2011 6:13:00 AM (view original):

Who is complaining about variance?

ike - you actually want more variance I would guess. either directly or indirectly at least.

I just read the preview of my son's college team's game today, UWGB leads the horizon league in rebounding differential, +3.9, that does not seem like much versus this game or even intuitively, does not seem like much, does it?
And Pitt has a rebounding margin of 13.1.

I don't care about the variability, I care about the code affecting rebounds.

No, but this is one of those things where I don't think real life is necessarily a good comparison.  If I recruit only for rebounding (which I don't, but let's say I did), and had five guys on the court with 50, 60, 80, 95, 95 at D3, then do you think I should only have a +4 margin because that's what teams lead by in real life?

The point is that this is what if sports, and one of the draws is that we can build teams, even ridiculously, to have fun with certain strengths.  I don't think there should be an artificial limit placed on that because of real life.

Now I'm not saying that is happening (although I have a feeling it is), but I'm simply making the point that rebounding should be affected by real life as much as the ratings.
1/15/2011 10:43 AM
ike1024
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Posted by wronoj on 1/15/2011 10:37:00 AM (view original):
my issue with the REB deficiency (as i see it) is that it has taken a key element of ratings out of play-- it's largely a d3 issue, maybe somewhat at d2. 

in d3, you can have 20+ advantages o in REB across the boards, and ~same ATH/SPD, and see no rebounding advantage. This happens on a regular basis, and most good d3 programs have essentially given up on REB as a recruitable metric.

In d1 the difference in REB ratings simply isn't there. You can't get mad when your 99 REB guy doesn't crush the other team's 89-92 guy.
EXACTLY!
1/15/2011 10:43 AM
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Posted by ike1024 on 1/15/2011 10:43:00 AM (view original):
Posted by wronoj on 1/15/2011 10:37:00 AM (view original):
my issue with the REB deficiency (as i see it) is that it has taken a key element of ratings out of play-- it's largely a d3 issue, maybe somewhat at d2. 

in d3, you can have 20+ advantages o in REB across the boards, and ~same ATH/SPD, and see no rebounding advantage. This happens on a regular basis, and most good d3 programs have essentially given up on REB as a recruitable metric.

In d1 the difference in REB ratings simply isn't there. You can't get mad when your 99 REB guy doesn't crush the other team's 89-92 guy.
EXACTLY!
Are you sure about this?

I'm only in D3, and still relatively new, but I've recruited for rebounding and had some success with it.

Rarely do I have games where (given equal opportunities) I don't see a rebounding advantage against lesser-rated guys. Not saying it never happens (I'm sure it does, though I don't have a case off-hand) but it certainly hasn't been "on a regular basis" in my experience.
1/15/2011 11:19 AM
jwilli7122
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Posted by ike1024 on 1/15/2011 6:13:00 AM (view original):

Who is complaining about variance?

no one here.  someone was talking about people complaining about variance. and its very common. 
1/15/2011 11:48 AM
pinkeye
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i've played exactly 8 d3 games on the new engine and seen rebounding margins of 14, 20 and 11

artificial limit, why hast thou forsaken me?
1/15/2011 11:51 AM
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