Defense with BIGS Topic

Im confused with Centers and Powerforward ratings on defense when playing man to man. If a big has high DEF rating and very low BLK rating, will he hold his own and play good defense still? ( saying the IQ and ATH is good to great) Same goes with a big with high BLK but very low DEF rating?

1/18/2011 12:19 PM
I think you described a high DEF low BLK guy fine.  As for a high BLK, low DEF, I would expect him to get exploited more by the opposing center;  however, he will help your team defense by blocking shots (note that shot blockers typically block shots from every position, not just the guy he is guarding).
1/18/2011 1:19 PM
I don't care what anybody says, shot blocking is the single most overrated rating in the game, and among the most overrated stats in real life. A great shotblocker isn't necessarily a great defender and great post defenders aren't necessarily great shot blockers. Look at a guy like Theo Ratlif, one of the best shot blockers in his prime was a pretty weak defender. Then look at a guy like Dennis Rodman, one of the greatest post defenders ever but rarely blocked shots. It's the same in this game, and even more so because it's basically impossible to have a guy block more than 2.5 shots per game and extremely hard to have a guy block 2 shots per. For example in all of Tark there are 7 guys getting 2 more bpg and none in D1. It's much more important to get guys with high D ratings, because they won't give up many points to their man and they won't foul a bunch.
1/18/2011 1:59 PM
Posted by kmasonbx on 1/18/2011 1:59:00 PM (view original):
I don't care what anybody says, shot blocking is the single most overrated rating in the game, and among the most overrated stats in real life. A great shotblocker isn't necessarily a great defender and great post defenders aren't necessarily great shot blockers. Look at a guy like Theo Ratlif, one of the best shot blockers in his prime was a pretty weak defender. Then look at a guy like Dennis Rodman, one of the greatest post defenders ever but rarely blocked shots. It's the same in this game, and even more so because it's basically impossible to have a guy block more than 2.5 shots per game and extremely hard to have a guy block 2 shots per. For example in all of Tark there are 7 guys getting 2 more bpg and none in D1. It's much more important to get guys with high D ratings, because they won't give up many points to their man and they won't foul a bunch.
I know you have more experience and more success than me, but I did some statistical analysis a few seasons back on all the human-run teams in Knight D3 (EDIT: only looked at teams in the top 100 in RPI at the end of the regular season) and those with better team shot blocking were, on average, more successful defensively as teams than those with better team defense.  This was running aggregate numbers, so it doesn't necessarily speak to individual matchups.  But it was definitely the case that the inverse correlation between team SB rating (adjusted by minutes played) and FG% allowed was stronger than that between defense and FG% allowed.  Didn't bother with 3 pt. %s, but given that this question is really only addressing bigs I think that's irrelevant.  Anyway, I unfortunately did that on my old laptop which has since died and I don't have the exact data anymore.  Maybe I'll do it again soon if I have time.
1/18/2011 2:15 PM

The question is how were those team's D ratings along with the shot blocking. Also athleticism and IQ play a big role in defense as well. You can't just compare blk vs. D and say which matters more. If 1 guy has a 99blk/85D/99ath/A+ IQ he's going to be a better defender than somebody with 80blk/99D/80ath/A-IQ and it's not necessarily due to his blk rating being higher since there are so many other factors at work. I'm saying in a general sense one should be much more concerned with D rating over blk. Having a guy with 30D and 90blk is far worse than having a guy with 90D and 30blk.

1/18/2011 2:29 PM
kmason, what dahsdebater is saying is if you look at a large enough sample size, all the other factors will average out. jdtapp or whatever his name was did a similar statistical analysis years ago and came to the same conclusion - that blk had a larger correlation to low opponent fg% than def, and it might have even been that it was a larger correlation than any other stat. however, i argue that unless recruit generation is totally random, this says little (and i doubt it is).

also, i won about 5-10 championships before i even started paying attention to shot blocking a little - i literally ignored it completely, like durability. so no amount of statistical analysis will ever convince me shot blocking is the most important defensive category.

my running theory is that admin was smart enough to know people would try to "stat hack" the game - i mean its certainly easily - and he made sure this would not 'break" the game. i already scrape the history of every team in HD, i could very very easily grab the stats and ratings of every team as well, and do a very large sample size stat analysis - so i feel its too easy not to safeguard against. plus i am not convinced that is not cheating, so i wont do it - i don't feel other coaches could do it and it has nothing to do with their coaching ability. and, i am pretty sure, the results would intentionally mislead at least in some areas. that is based primarily off the results jdtapp showed from his statistical analysis and how far from reality i perceived them to be. you can be damn sure if i made a sim engine, i would have run every one of these myself, and made sure some of them were misleading.


edit: just to clarify, i am not at all suggesting anybody who mined data to run these numbers did anything wrong. i am just not really sure what to think of it so i personally don't want to touch it.
1/19/2011 12:51 AM (edited)
Simplifying the broad statistical correlations and moving to a slightly different question:  what do you guys think is the difference in terms of defense between a player of 90 blk and 30 blk, assuming all other defensive factors are equal?
1/18/2011 10:04 PM
Every other post on this forum someone declares that "X stat is the most overrated stat ever". There's guys who preach about the D stat being overrated, there's the "perimeter rating is useless" guys. In the end, no matter what a coach's cred, overall, I've started taking it with a grain of salt. Its become a lot like watching the partisan hacks on CNN.
1/18/2011 11:38 PM
i didn't mean to imply sb was useless. i was mostly arguing that the correlation didn't prove anything, but, i do think def is more important than sb.
1/19/2011 12:38 AM
Ben, I think it depends on the defense.  In the press the 30 SB guy might not be a huge downgrade from the 90 SB guy.  In the man I think the difference is a little bigger, and in zone I definitely think SB is more important for post defenders than DEF is.
1/19/2011 1:28 AM
Is there a particular def you guys feel SB is more valuable in? Zone? Man?
1/19/2011 4:46 AM
Posted by grantduck on 1/19/2011 4:46:00 AM (view original):
Is there a particular def you guys feel SB is more valuable in? Zone? Man?
Zone.
1/19/2011 8:01 AM
Posted by girt25 on 1/19/2011 8:01:00 AM (view original):
Posted by grantduck on 1/19/2011 4:46:00 AM (view original):
Is there a particular def you guys feel SB is more valuable in? Zone? Man?
Zone.
+1
1/19/2011 9:07 AM
Defense with BIGS Topic

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