FCP question (following 2/3 update) Topic

isack, I'm not sure where I got this from (so it could be completely wrong or merely a "forum fact"), but I think that the defense played does impact the team playing it more than the opponent. Up tempo/Slow down on the other hand, impacts both equally I think.
2/3/2011 7:29 PM
Posted by emy1013 on 2/3/2011 6:57:00 PM (view original):
Given WIS' track record of overcorrections in the past, I fully expect the FCP to once again become the dominant defense that it was before.  A lot of these little "tweaks" seem to certainly favor the FCP as opposed to the other defenses.  It certainly shouldn't take long to see whether this will be the case or not, but I'm saying it now:  I've got a realllly bad feeling about this.  I've almost always ran a M2M defense since I started playing HD, refusing to sell out to the whims of the engine like others did (nothing against those coaches, if they can live with knowing they were winning through "glitchy" means, then more power to 'em).  But if the Press does become dominant again, then I guess I'll have to join the list of sell-outs because I'm not competing on unequal footing again.
Epic post. In the past you other schmucks only won because the press was glitchy and that's lame.  Now I'll probably go to the press and its justified because its unequal.  

Self-rationalization. Its a strong drug.
2/3/2011 7:30 PM
Posted by zbrent716 on 2/3/2011 7:29:00 PM (view original):
isack, I'm not sure where I got this from (so it could be completely wrong or merely a "forum fact"), but I think that the defense played does impact the team playing it more than the opponent. Up tempo/Slow down on the other hand, impacts both equally I think.

Might not be either, just my observation.

It's not that I think the non-press and press teams decrease exactly the same, but I think it's unrealistic to think that without ridiculous staminas a team can press after both made and missed shots, constantly trap, and still have the energy to play basketball.

Seems like it shouldn't even be close in terms of fatigue, but it is, at least in my observation.

2/3/2011 7:36 PM
I share the same concerns as the author of this thread.  IMO, the ease with which a succesful program can be built by running the FCP is the worst problem with HD.  It takes less effort to recruit to the press, because all you have to do is go after the best athletes available.  Once your players get enough experience, it's a highly successful strategy.  It seems like a fairly brainless way to win in a game that is, otherwise, all about using your head to try to outsmart your opponent. If these engine changes make it even easier to win with FCP, then I am always going to be wondering if I am wasting my time thinking about strategy, when the least thoughtful strategy is the one that works best.

Ultimately, FCP needs to be removed as a base defense and implemented instead as a situational option.  If coaches choose to use it extensively, then they ought to have to go through some lengths to recruit the right personel to make it work.  It shouldn't be so ridiculously easy to put together a team that can run it non stop and win with it.
2/3/2011 7:47 PM
Posted by cheeznsweet on 2/3/2011 7:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by emy1013 on 2/3/2011 6:57:00 PM (view original):
Given WIS' track record of overcorrections in the past, I fully expect the FCP to once again become the dominant defense that it was before.  A lot of these little "tweaks" seem to certainly favor the FCP as opposed to the other defenses.  It certainly shouldn't take long to see whether this will be the case or not, but I'm saying it now:  I've got a realllly bad feeling about this.  I've almost always ran a M2M defense since I started playing HD, refusing to sell out to the whims of the engine like others did (nothing against those coaches, if they can live with knowing they were winning through "glitchy" means, then more power to 'em).  But if the Press does become dominant again, then I guess I'll have to join the list of sell-outs because I'm not competing on unequal footing again.
Epic post. In the past you other schmucks only won because the press was glitchy and that's lame.  Now I'll probably go to the press and its justified because its unequal.  

Self-rationalization. Its a strong drug.
I'm not going to lie and pretend I don't share a lot of emy's thoughts.

My team has always run zone and I'm waiting for the update that gives zone a bit of a boost over the other two defenses.  I think I might be waiting an awful long time, especially since most human coaches are running one of the other two and seble is going to be making changes based on tickets from folks complaining about how the game treats those two defenses.

I came awfully close to switching to press multiple times over the past few years but didn't primarily for aesthetic reasons (stupid, I confess) and also because I figured at some point they would kill the monster.  I was pretty pleased that the new engine seemed to do that and favor man-to-man over press.  I obviously would have preferred it favoring zone, but I was perfectly fine with the new engine simply slaying the beast.

Even though zone is probably the consensus less favored defense, it had some advantages against a press team:
  • Fatigue slows down a press much quicker than a zone; within the game I can typically have fresher players on the court.  I also am able to recruit players that don't have high/high potential in stamina and run them in a zone where I couldn't do that with the press.
  • The press fouls a lot and with FT% high, I can take advantage of that by getting to the line with players that have high athleticism.

Well as zbrent716 notes, those advantages against the press seem to have been neutralized quite a bit.  Hopefully not too much.  But I share with emy the view, that tweaks tend to overcorrect.  With some luck, seble has the balance correct and the press won't be overly favored by these changes.

The fact that the press may be favored yet again isn't all that big of a deal to be honest.  98 times out of 100, the better team wins the game and it wouldn't matter what defense is run.  I lose a decent amount to press teams.  But that is because I'm not as good a coach compared to many that I choose to schedule.  They would beat me running any of the three defenses.  The fact that they can benefit from the press doesn't make a big difference.  But as a less-than-great coach that can use every advantage at my disposal, I'd like to have that 2 out of 100 odds on my side for once.
2/3/2011 8:07 PM
The zone will still have the advantage of being able to hide a moderate defender much more easily than can be done in another defense...  Might weaken your overall defense a bit, but you can be much more quick to jump on an elite offensive option who has a defense rating such that man and press coaches are forced to think twice.
2/3/2011 8:11 PM
Posted by jkline on 2/3/2011 7:47:00 PM (view original):
I share the same concerns as the author of this thread.  IMO, the ease with which a succesful program can be built by running the FCP is the worst problem with HD.  It takes less effort to recruit to the press, because all you have to do is go after the best athletes available.  Once your players get enough experience, it's a highly successful strategy.  It seems like a fairly brainless way to win in a game that is, otherwise, all about using your head to try to outsmart your opponent. If these engine changes make it even easier to win with FCP, then I am always going to be wondering if I am wasting my time thinking about strategy, when the least thoughtful strategy is the one that works best.

Ultimately, FCP needs to be removed as a base defense and implemented instead as a situational option.  If coaches choose to use it extensively, then they ought to have to go through some lengths to recruit the right personel to make it work.  It shouldn't be so ridiculously easy to put together a team that can run it non stop and win with it.

+ infinity

2/3/2011 8:49 PM
Posted by cheeznsweet on 2/3/2011 7:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by emy1013 on 2/3/2011 6:57:00 PM (view original):
Given WIS' track record of overcorrections in the past, I fully expect the FCP to once again become the dominant defense that it was before.  A lot of these little "tweaks" seem to certainly favor the FCP as opposed to the other defenses.  It certainly shouldn't take long to see whether this will be the case or not, but I'm saying it now:  I've got a realllly bad feeling about this.  I've almost always ran a M2M defense since I started playing HD, refusing to sell out to the whims of the engine like others did (nothing against those coaches, if they can live with knowing they were winning through "glitchy" means, then more power to 'em).  But if the Press does become dominant again, then I guess I'll have to join the list of sell-outs because I'm not competing on unequal footing again.
Epic post. In the past you other schmucks only won because the press was glitchy and that's lame.  Now I'll probably go to the press and its justified because its unequal.  

Self-rationalization. Its a strong drug.
I was wondering who would be the first to respond.  You've been around long enough Cheez, you think the FCP was always on equal footing with the other defenses?  Really?  You don't think there was a reason that the majority of the human coached teams were running it (and no, that's not speculation.  Someone actually took the time to document how many were running which defense), or a reason that the majority of the National Champions played that defense?  Really? Because if you do think the FCP has always been just an equal to the other defenses, you've had your head in the sand for way too long.

See, I wouldn't mind continuing to run a M2M or a Zone for that matter, were this a FREE game.  But since it's not and credits come with how far you advance in the NT, why should I play at a disadvantage and give money away?  And that is why I now will sell out, not because it's justified or some kind of self-rationalization (I bet you've been dying to use that phrase since your Psych 101 class, huh?  Not impressed, really), but because I'm not giving away free money anymore.  That better? 

Now if I'm wrong and Seble's "tweaks" are just that, which as I said before given WIS' track record I doubt will be just "tweaks" and probably more like an avalanche, then hey, great job by him.  But when they do turn into that avalanche and everyone starts running the press again, you gonna accuse them of "self-rationalization" also, or are you finally gonna see the light?

Oh, and by the way, some legit coaches won titles running the press, along with A LOT of flavor of the month schmucks.  Wonder why only a few of those coaches who won titles back when it was glitchy (and even the developer admitted it was glitchy) are still winning now and the rest of faded back to mediocrity since the press was put in line with the other D's?  Ever wonder that?  Says a whole lot that they can't win on equal footing, doesn't it?  So yes, the coaches who sold out, switched to press when it was glitchy, won themselves a title, and now can't win a second round game, yes, they are the schmucks you mentioned above.  I see you've got yourself a title.  You're not one of the sell out schmucks too, are you?  For some reason........ 
2/4/2011 12:04 AM
if the majority of human coached teams were playing press i'd say those schmucky coaches won on pretty equal footing....

....but damn do i hate them for realizing they pay for this game years before i could come to the same conclusion!
2/4/2011 1:27 AM
Figured my stalker would be around after too much longer also.  Sorry but you really missed the point.  Nice attempt to have an intelligent thought, but really you should leave the discussion to the adults.
2/4/2011 1:51 AM
It's quite comical actually.  You troll the threads making your little smartass hit and run comments, probably thinking that you're clever the whole while.  Reality is, people see you for the troll you are and your comments, while probably amusing to you, make you look pretty foolish.  Have a nice night troll.

By the way, do you EVER add anything useful to a thread or do you really just get off trying to be clever and witty with your snide remarks?  I mean, ever?

And apologies to the OP for getting off-topic.  I'll leave it to you guys to keep discussing the potential problems with the new "tweaks".
2/4/2011 2:04 AM (edited)
Posted by emy1013 on 2/4/2011 12:04:00 AM (view original):
Posted by cheeznsweet on 2/3/2011 7:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by emy1013 on 2/3/2011 6:57:00 PM (view original):
Given WIS' track record of overcorrections in the past, I fully expect the FCP to once again become the dominant defense that it was before.  A lot of these little "tweaks" seem to certainly favor the FCP as opposed to the other defenses.  It certainly shouldn't take long to see whether this will be the case or not, but I'm saying it now:  I've got a realllly bad feeling about this.  I've almost always ran a M2M defense since I started playing HD, refusing to sell out to the whims of the engine like others did (nothing against those coaches, if they can live with knowing they were winning through "glitchy" means, then more power to 'em).  But if the Press does become dominant again, then I guess I'll have to join the list of sell-outs because I'm not competing on unequal footing again.
Epic post. In the past you other schmucks only won because the press was glitchy and that's lame.  Now I'll probably go to the press and its justified because its unequal.  

Self-rationalization. Its a strong drug.
I was wondering who would be the first to respond.  You've been around long enough Cheez, you think the FCP was always on equal footing with the other defenses?  Really?  You don't think there was a reason that the majority of the human coached teams were running it (and no, that's not speculation.  Someone actually took the time to document how many were running which defense), or a reason that the majority of the National Champions played that defense?  Really? Because if you do think the FCP has always been just an equal to the other defenses, you've had your head in the sand for way too long.

See, I wouldn't mind continuing to run a M2M or a Zone for that matter, were this a FREE game.  But since it's not and credits come with how far you advance in the NT, why should I play at a disadvantage and give money away?  And that is why I now will sell out, not because it's justified or some kind of self-rationalization (I bet you've been dying to use that phrase since your Psych 101 class, huh?  Not impressed, really), but because I'm not giving away free money anymore.  That better? 

Now if I'm wrong and Seble's "tweaks" are just that, which as I said before given WIS' track record I doubt will be just "tweaks" and probably more like an avalanche, then hey, great job by him.  But when they do turn into that avalanche and everyone starts running the press again, you gonna accuse them of "self-rationalization" also, or are you finally gonna see the light?

Oh, and by the way, some legit coaches won titles running the press, along with A LOT of flavor of the month schmucks.  Wonder why only a few of those coaches who won titles back when it was glitchy (and even the developer admitted it was glitchy) are still winning now and the rest of faded back to mediocrity since the press was put in line with the other D's?  Ever wonder that?  Says a whole lot that they can't win on equal footing, doesn't it?  So yes, the coaches who sold out, switched to press when it was glitchy, won themselves a title, and now can't win a second round game, yes, they are the schmucks you mentioned above.  I see you've got yourself a title.  You're not one of the sell out schmucks too, are you?  For some reason........ 
Lighten up. 

You really need to slow down with putting words in other people's mouths.  You do it in every single freaking thread you post in. 

1) I don't think the FCP is equal to other defenses - so there goes like 2/3rds of your rant
2) I never took Psych 101 - so there goes your latest pithy quip attempt
3) I didn't win my NT with the press.  I ran M2M at Yale.  So there goes your latest attempt at a clever closing dig at me.
4) I haven't run the press in almost 20 seasons in Allen and Phelan except for 2-3 seasons as part of a combo with M2M.  And then I only did it because I had a team that had a ton of upperclassmen and recruits that already knew the press and even then I only used it less than a half dozen times a season.
5) If you took half the time to look up my history as you take to come up with all this bullshit you're spewing you'd see that I've actually been MORE successful since the engine update and that neither of my teams runs the press.  But I guess it would be too much to ask for you to focus on the reality of what's being said and done instead of investing your time in trying to craft a bunch of stuff you wish I'd said or done.
6) I'm going to let the "troll the threads making hit and run comments" part just kind of sit there for a second so I can drink in the irony of your complete lack of self-awareness.
7) I'm not stalking you.  I don't even know you except to know that you lumber into the discussions on the forums, crap all over everyone with your condescending bullshit and have serious issues with reading comprehension.  And if someone calls you out for it you lose your mind and resort to things like spending 4 paragraphs blustering on and on about something I never even said.

So here's some real content that you'll probably not bother reacting to and, if you do, you'll just misinterpret it, make some bogus assumptions, and then tell me that I'm not adding any value:

I agree with what you're saying about the press to a certain extent.  I think when really good teams use it, its just about impossible to beat them.  And when I say "really good" I mean the top 10 teams in any world.  

But when the rest of the lemmings jump on board because they think its magic, its actually easier to beat them because the press has a ton of weaknesses unless its done with a lot of talent.   I've looked at multiple years worth of stats and, on average, the press generates TERRIBLE rebounding numbers.  As bad as or worse than the zone.  Again, I'm saying with equal talents levels...if you're loaded with 99 ATH/99 REB guys you can overcome that.  Also, unless FCP teams have some pretty sizeable ATH/SPD advantages, they give up significantly higher than average FG%.  Add to that the fact that most of the lemming coaches try to combine the FCP with constant up-tempo and its actually really easy to beat them.

I also see your point about the very real limitations of playing against the press in the NT because, at some point, you face the really good teams that are loaded and can run the FCP effectively.  But I personally think that's much less offensive and has less of an impact on the game than things like, say, baseline prestige advantages which ensure that some pretty mediocre coaches end up with talent-laden teams that are just as hard or harder to beat.

So chalk me up as a guy saying that even if these changes favor the press somewhat, its not that big of a deal.


2/4/2011 8:45 AM
For a GD player, this is an interesting post because the old gripe in GD was that "run only" offenses are gimmicky and impossible to stop. In reality, the really good coaches ran "run only" very well, and the lemmings thought "run only" was play and succeed. 

I am still new to HD (thanks GD for screwing up your game engine), but nothing is as easy as "play and succeed." FCP probably only seems so overly dominant because the really good coaches know how to recruit for it and run it very well. And with worlds being sparsely populated, mediocre coaches can put up numbers that seem to indicate they are successful with FCP. However, put mediocre FCP head to head with very good FCP and very good probably wins 9 out of 10. Likewise, a good zone coach and probably beat mediocre FCP, if play head to head enough times. It is a matter of odds. Put the numbers on a long enough curve and good coaches will always succeed at higher rate than mediocre. That is why Vegas and insurance companies never go broke.
2/4/2011 9:43 AM
Posted by emy1013 on 2/4/2011 1:51:00 AM (view original):
Figured my stalker would be around after too much longer also.  Sorry but you really missed the point.  Nice attempt to have an intelligent thought, but really you should leave the discussion to the adults.
i got the point just fine, you're a hypocrite.
2/4/2011 9:51 AM
"But when the rest of the lemmings jump on board because they think its magic, its actually easier to beat them because the press has a ton of weaknesses unless its done with a lot of talent.   I've looked at multiple years worth of stats and, on average, the press generates TERRIBLE rebounding numbers.  As bad as or worse than the zone.  Again, I'm saying with equal talents levels...if you're loaded with 99 ATH/99 REB guys you can overcome that.  Also, unless FCP teams have some pretty sizeable ATH/SPD advantages, they give up significantly higher than average FG%.  Add to that the fact that most of the lemming coaches try to combine the FCP with constant up-tempo and its actually really easy to beat them."

This makes me feel even worse about winning like 95% of my games against the zone and man over the past five seasons and close to 50% against press.

2/4/2011 9:59 AM
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FCP question (following 2/3 update) Topic

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