girt your opinion is that opinion, I think the change makes the box scores more like real life, not less.  My opinion. 

I also like the team building more in the new game, as you have multiple paths to success, rather than just one.  Is the new way more or less real life, I actually could explain why it too is more, just watch what happens to the 10th thru 12th men on most of your local d1 college programs, and explain to me how the 'old' way was more real life than the 8-9 man way.  I have an alternate theory -most 10's thru 12's do not move into starting lineups, they mostly transfer to d2 programs or sit their entire careers, not all that unlike the 'new' game.

Again, I am not strongly sold, just it is ok, and the box scores with fatigue the way it is now, is more real life, it really is, at least in my opinion, unless you know of dozens of d1 programs playing 12 kids 18 minutes each?

There is a difference between playing 9 deep and being able to play your 5 75+ STA starters 40 mins until they foul out. WOuld you agree with that part?

Posted by mullycj on 2/27/2011 8:38:00 PM (view original):
There is a difference between playing 9 deep and being able to play your 5 75+ STA starters 40 mins until they foul out. WOuld you agree with that part?

are you suggesting that's not an absolutely horrible strategy?

'cause it is

Posted by oldresorter on 2/27/2011 7:32:00 PM (view original):
girt your opinion is that opinion, I think the change makes the box scores more like real life, not less.  My opinion. 

I also like the team building more in the new game, as you have multiple paths to success, rather than just one.  Is the new way more or less real life, I actually could explain why it too is more, just watch what happens to the 10th thru 12th men on most of your local d1 college programs, and explain to me how the 'old' way was more real life than the 8-9 man way.  I have an alternate theory -most 10's thru 12's do not move into starting lineups, they mostly transfer to d2 programs or sit their entire careers, not all that unlike the 'new' game.

Again, I am not strongly sold, just it is ok, and the box scores with fatigue the way it is now, is more real life, it really is, at least in my opinion, unless you know of dozens of d1 programs playing 12 kids 18 minutes each?

In another thread someone once said that making changes to the game to make it more like real life do not automatically make it a better game. I agree with that sentiment. There are a number of things about this game that are not, and cannot easily be like real life, so to automatically force other aspects to mimic real life may not always be the best thing for the game.

Posted by mullycj on 2/27/2011 8:38:00 PM (view original):
There is a difference between playing 9 deep and being able to play your 5 75+ STA starters 40 mins until they foul out. WOuld you agree with that part?

You should stop looking at it as a guy with 75 STA playing 40 mins.  You have to change the way you look at stamina now.  Before, it used to be easy to get all of your guys into the 90s in STA, which allowed them to play most of the game.  So instead of seble fixing the recruits, he changed how the engine treats the STA rating.  There are a lot more players now with ridiculously low staminas which never happened before. 

What was unrealistic was that so many star players were playing 23 mpg because of low stamina ratings. Now, the players with stamina in the 60s will at least be able to play a respectable amount of minutes.  I think it's a good change. 

making the game mimic real life does not make it a bad change either,

I think moving minutes that starters can play from 26 minutes to 30 minutes set at FF/GT - which is my humble experience with the new engine is simple ok, not mind blowing one way or the other - for anyone claiming 24 minute guys are now 40 minute guys - I simply do not know where that is coming from -  that simply has not been my experience -

I have not played vs a single team that has had a 77 stamina player play 40 minutes, let alone play well for 40 minutes.  One thing that many fail to understand about this game, any strategy might work ok for a game, a d3 400 level player might score 20 in a d1 title game or lock down a 1000 rated guy for one game.  That is not the flaw of this game, but the genius.   Because in real life, there (there I go again) the best team does not always triumph, that is why they play the game.

Making the game mimic real life in and of itself is neither a good nor a bad change, but it is a poor reason to change the game. The game should be changed if the game is not running well, not because certain aspects fail to mimic real life.  What makes it a bad change, for me, is that it totally messes with how I was recruiting and gameplanning. I'll adjust, and I'm not whining about it, but since folks are stating their opinions and some of these opinions seemed to be based upon the fact that the changes were made to mimic real life, I felt it needed pointing out.  I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it in this manner.
I have no knowledge of things like that 77 STA player and his 40 minutes. I do know that I don't like the move from 26 to 31 for most players. That is just my opinion. 

ok - I am bored silly of this conversation, but what the heck, I actually looked at the team in question, here is what I found.

the team in ? has played 5 games, I arbitrarily did the math (quickly) for the last 7 minutes of each half vs the first 13 minutes of each half, here is what I found:

game 1 - first 13 minutes - down 3 last 7 minutes each half up 5
game 2 1st 13 - even, last 7 down 13
game 3 1st 13 ahead 3, last 7 down 11
game 4 first 13 down 1, last 7 down 17
game 5 first 13 up 12, last 7 down 7

total 130 minutes representing the first 13 minutes of each half, the team is +11, 70 minutes rep the last 7 minutes of each half, -43

I think this is fairly conclusive that playing a shallow roster with tired players is not a stellar strategy.  By the way, I think several of the games were even against a zone playing normal tempo, if a top notch coach played them with uptempo, maybe even press or combo, they would win by 50.

Posted by dacj501 on 2/27/2011 9:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by oldresorter on 2/27/2011 7:32:00 PM (view original):
girt your opinion is that opinion, I think the change makes the box scores more like real life, not less.  My opinion. 

I also like the team building more in the new game, as you have multiple paths to success, rather than just one.  Is the new way more or less real life, I actually could explain why it too is more, just watch what happens to the 10th thru 12th men on most of your local d1 college programs, and explain to me how the 'old' way was more real life than the 8-9 man way.  I have an alternate theory -most 10's thru 12's do not move into starting lineups, they mostly transfer to d2 programs or sit their entire careers, not all that unlike the 'new' game.

Again, I am not strongly sold, just it is ok, and the box scores with fatigue the way it is now, is more real life, it really is, at least in my opinion, unless you know of dozens of d1 programs playing 12 kids 18 minutes each?

In another thread someone once said that making changes to the game to make it more like real life do not automatically make it a better game. I agree with that sentiment. There are a number of things about this game that are not, and cannot easily be like real life, so to automatically force other aspects to mimic real life may not always be the best thing for the game.

That has been my rallying cry for years -- make changes based on what's best for the game, not to just blindly copy real life.

Posted by oldresorter on 2/27/2011 7:32:00 PM (view original):
girt your opinion is that opinion, I think the change makes the box scores more like real life, not less.  My opinion. 

I also like the team building more in the new game, as you have multiple paths to success, rather than just one.  Is the new way more or less real life, I actually could explain why it too is more, just watch what happens to the 10th thru 12th men on most of your local d1 college programs, and explain to me how the 'old' way was more real life than the 8-9 man way.  I have an alternate theory -most 10's thru 12's do not move into starting lineups, they mostly transfer to d2 programs or sit their entire careers, not all that unlike the 'new' game.

Again, I am not strongly sold, just it is ok, and the box scores with fatigue the way it is now, is more real life, it really is, at least in my opinion, unless you know of dozens of d1 programs playing 12 kids 18 minutes each?

OR, I think I know you well enough to know that is some extremely purposeful wording on your part -- "the box scores more like real life".

Yes, that's true. The box scores are. But I'm talking about the overall effect, and if a change is pushing coaches more towards multiple walk-ons and only 8/9/10 scholarship players, then the overall result is not more like real life, it's much less.

Nobody has proved that 8 or 9 or 10 is either that widespead in the game, or is that effective, in my recent tark, we had 2 teams in the final 4 both have 12, not even 11 players, my uconn team in the same world has 12, matter of fact, all but one of my ten teams I think has 12 scholy players, normally most of my teams have 11 over the years, which is not real life either - plus, I think 8 or 9 is more a forum fact, some coaches do it, but it is not widespread at all - and to repeat, I have not seen anywhere that the strategy is effective ... it obviously has not been effective for the fellow that this thread was started over.

Plus, getting the box scores right, the actual sim, is the most important aspect of this game for me, isn't it for you?

SO then, if you don't like it because its 'less like real life' you then want to create more separation in the recruits that Duke, Kentucky et al are able to get and everyone else at division one, right?  Because Providence winning national titles isn't 'like real life'.

And I can't belileve I am posting this, given I have argued the other side of the fence but. . . well. . just because its like real life doesn't make it better.  Just like food being 'Organic' doesn't make it better for you.

Posted by arssanguinus on 2/28/2011 6:36:00 AM (view original):
SO then, if you don't like it because its 'less like real life' you then want to create more separation in the recruits that Duke, Kentucky et al are able to get and everyone else at division one, right?  Because Providence winning national titles isn't 'like real life'.

And I can't belileve I am posting this, given I have argued the other side of the fence but. . . well. . just because its like real life doesn't make it better.  Just like food being 'Organic' doesn't make it better for you.

I agree with you about letting providence or even st francis have a shot, but what you said is not the basis of this change, this change did not take away the prospect of providence or even st francis of new york winning a NT.  The change might have even moved the gap between top and bottom slightly closer, maybe.

And in terms of box score, I can't think of many reasons why like real life is not better, matter of fact, that seems to be the basis upon this games success was founded, the ability to accurately and like real life sim basketball games - don't you agree?

Where I have opposed the 'like real life' is in the game's attempt to simulate basketball coaching life, things like disciplining kids, picking out their lunch menu's, building stadiums, fund raising, injuries, going to sororiety parties and hitting on coeds, an important part real life, but not what this game should do, nor has this game done it well when it tries.

Posted by oldresorter on 2/28/2011 6:54:00 AM (view original):

Posted by arssanguinus on 2/28/2011 6:36:00 AM (view original):
SO then, if you don't like it because its 'less like real life' you then want to create more separation in the recruits that Duke, Kentucky et al are able to get and everyone else at division one, right?  Because Providence winning national titles isn't 'like real life'.

And I can't belileve I am posting this, given I have argued the other side of the fence but. . . well. . just because its like real life doesn't make it better.  Just like food being 'Organic' doesn't make it better for you.

I agree with you about letting providence or even st francis have a shot, but what you said is not the basis of this change, this change did not take away the prospect of providence or even st francis of new york winning a NT.  The change might have even moved the gap between top and bottom slightly closer, maybe.

And in terms of box score, I can't think of many reasons why like real life is not better, matter of fact, that seems to be the basis upon this games success was founded, the ability to accurately and like real life sim basketball games - don't you agree?

Where I have opposed the 'like real life' is in the game's attempt to simulate basketball coaching life, things like disciplining kids, picking out their lunch menu's, building stadiums, fund raising, injuries, going to sororiety parties and hitting on coeds, an important part real life, but not what this game should do, nor has this game done it well when it tries.

I'm not disagreeing with your posts in this thread at all, really.  I don't mind the changes to stamina a bit.  I agree completely that anything that makes the boxscore mroe 'realistic' is good - I want to click on the link and see something that I could expect to see in a newspaper boxscore, so to speak.    I still think accounting for injuries at some level is good - perhaps even make it just something isolated to in game - low durability makes it so you might have to sit out periods of some games - or just make it so an injury doesn't take you out of a game, but just reduces your effectiveness for several games.  On the other hand, I wouldn't object if Durability was removed and replaced with, say, "Perimeter defense", and make it so that a guard can practice defense without practicing rebounding, shotblocking and low post as well.

But putting that aside, I really don't disagree with most of what you have said in this thread.

Posted by arssanguinus on 2/28/2011 6:36:00 AM (view original):
SO then, if you don't like it because its 'less like real life' you then want to create more separation in the recruits that Duke, Kentucky et al are able to get and everyone else at division one, right?  Because Providence winning national titles isn't 'like real life'.

And I can't belileve I am posting this, given I have argued the other side of the fence but. . . well. . just because its like real life doesn't make it better.  Just like food being 'Organic' doesn't make it better for you.

My point wasn't that I wanted things more like real life. My point that the change came under the guise of "this'll make things more like real life", but in the end game, I don't believe it does.

I have always said, let's do what's best for HD, not simply copying real life.