SOS is 2/3 your opponents records and 1/3 your opponent opponents records.
Which results in SOS being 75% of  your RPI. 

It basically comes down to how to determine a quality opoonent on something other than just W-L or RPI.

Posted by Iguana1 on 3/18/2011 1:17:00 PM (view original):
RPI is:
25% - your W-L % with location factored in
50% - your opponents W-L (with location included)
25% - your opponents opponents W-L (with location included)


So the example of a 19 win team with a 25-SOS almost always having a better RPI than a 23 win team with a 200-SOS is true, both in Real Life and HD, since 75% of your RPI comes from your opponent.

But seeding in HD, although it still may use the RPI a bit more than Real Life, basically values Wins over poor competition much more than Real Life does.

Iguana you are usually spot on, but I think you have a mistake here.  Location is not factored in when determining the opponent's winning percentage and opponents opponents winning percentage for the RPI calculation.

Posted by _hannibal_ on 3/18/2011 9:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Iguana1 on 3/18/2011 1:17:00 PM (view original):
RPI is:
25% - your W-L % with location factored in
50% - your opponents W-L (with location included)
25% - your opponents opponents W-L (with location included)


So the example of a 19 win team with a 25-SOS almost always having a better RPI than a 23 win team with a 200-SOS is true, both in Real Life and HD, since 75% of your RPI comes from your opponent.

But seeding in HD, although it still may use the RPI a bit more than Real Life, basically values Wins over poor competition much more than Real Life does.

Iguana you are usually spot on, but I think you have a mistake here.  Location is not factored in when determining the opponent's winning percentage and opponents opponents winning percentage for the RPI calculation.

Hannibal,

Can you either paste or link your source for this?  I think it's been shown numerous times that as far as RPI is concerned, away games help you more and hurt you less than games at home.

Posted by hitman1979 on 3/18/2011 9:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by _hannibal_ on 3/18/2011 9:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Iguana1 on 3/18/2011 1:17:00 PM (view original):
RPI is:
25% - your W-L % with location factored in
50% - your opponents W-L (with location included)
25% - your opponents opponents W-L (with location included)


So the example of a 19 win team with a 25-SOS almost always having a better RPI than a 23 win team with a 200-SOS is true, both in Real Life and HD, since 75% of your RPI comes from your opponent.

But seeding in HD, although it still may use the RPI a bit more than Real Life, basically values Wins over poor competition much more than Real Life does.

Iguana you are usually spot on, but I think you have a mistake here.  Location is not factored in when determining the opponent's winning percentage and opponents opponents winning percentage for the RPI calculation.

Hannibal,

Can you either paste or link your source for this?  I think it's been shown numerous times that as far as RPI is concerned, away games help you more and hurt you less than games at home.

As far as WP is concerned, yes, your "away games help you more and hurt you less than games at home" statement is completely true.  RPI formula was revamped in 2004 so that away wins = 1.4 wins while a home win = 0.6 wins (so an away loss = 0.6 losses, home loss = 1.4 losses).

For OWP and OOWP, however, location is not factored in to the formula.  Away/home wins/losses = 1 win/1 loss, no matter where it happens.

Not that Wikipedia is gospel by any stretch, but just a quick Google search will give you plenty of sources in addition to this one (read the formula section):

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratings_Percentage_Index

Posted by Iguana1 on 3/18/2011 4:55:00 PM (view original):
SOS is 2/3 your opponents records and 1/3 your opponent opponents records.
Which results in SOS being 75% of  your RPI. 

It basically comes down to how to determine a quality opoonent on something other than just W-L or RPI.

Logisticly, yes. But you only have to look at the disconnect between RPI and SOS to see that there appears to be something off. HD insists they use the same formula we are talking about, but just looking at someone with 255 SOS it doesn't seem to correlate to a 33 RPI using that kind of formula even with only one loss... that is why I'm saying they need to weight it more somehow (SOS).  I mean, SDSU in RL is coming in with an RPI of 22 with 2 losses (to the same team) and had a SOS .591, I cannot possibly see how someone in HD New Hampshire would get a 33 RPI with a SOS of .475... Sure HD's NH had a margianally better WP, but I just can't see that overcoming that horrible SOS to complete the formula. It's worth noting for this discussion that NH didn't even with thier CT (which in real life would have put them close to out or a very low seed)

But, barring putting more wieght on SOS, I'm not sure how to balance it for HD. The main reason I say SOS is because nearly 1/2 of every world is simmie so we have to look at things alot differantly than in RL, IMHO.

I don't know, maybe put conference RPI into the equation somewhere? Not neccesarily as a selection tool, but as a seeding tool.     

It's already worth 75% of RPI.  If you weight it any stronger than that, you're doing it at the expense of winning games.  I don't know about you, but I don't think that's a very good idea at all.

If the RPI is being implemented correctly, yes, it is. Like I said I don't know of a time that any school in RL had a SOS of 255 and made the tourney as an at-large, let alone seeded in the top half of the bracket.

HD is a differant animal. A completely average team can go undefeated and be seeded highly because at least 1/2 the schools are sim controlled stinkers. There has to be a way to balance that out. I don't want all BCS schools, but right now it's just too darn easy for the best of the worst to get vastly overseeded because of it. Adding conference RPI to the seeding process might balance that out since most of the humans reside in around 5-6 conferences.

Posted by doomey on 3/19/2011 12:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Iguana1 on 3/18/2011 4:55:00 PM (view original):
SOS is 2/3 your opponents records and 1/3 your opponent opponents records.
Which results in SOS being 75% of  your RPI. 

It basically comes down to how to determine a quality opoonent on something other than just W-L or RPI.

Logisticly, yes. But you only have to look at the disconnect between RPI and SOS to see that there appears to be something off. HD insists they use the same formula we are talking about, but just looking at someone with 255 SOS it doesn't seem to correlate to a 33 RPI using that kind of formula even with only one loss... that is why I'm saying they need to weight it more somehow (SOS).  I mean, SDSU in RL is coming in with an RPI of 22 with 2 losses (to the same team) and had a SOS .591, I cannot possibly see how someone in HD New Hampshire would get a 33 RPI with a SOS of .475... Sure HD's NH had a margianally better WP, but I just can't see that overcoming that horrible SOS to complete the formula. It's worth noting for this discussion that NH didn't even with thier CT (which in real life would have put them close to out or a very low seed)

But, barring putting more wieght on SOS, I'm not sure how to balance it for HD. The main reason I say SOS is because nearly 1/2 of every world is simmie so we have to look at things alot differantly than in RL, IMHO.

Where are you getting this? Last I checked SDSU's rpi was 5.

Correction-their rpi is 3. http://insider.espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rpi

Posted by ryrun on 3/18/2011 11:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hitman1979 on 3/18/2011 9:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by _hannibal_ on 3/18/2011 9:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Iguana1 on 3/18/2011 1:17:00 PM (view original):
RPI is:
25% - your W-L % with location factored in
50% - your opponents W-L (with location included)
25% - your opponents opponents W-L (with location included)


So the example of a 19 win team with a 25-SOS almost always having a better RPI than a 23 win team with a 200-SOS is true, both in Real Life and HD, since 75% of your RPI comes from your opponent.

But seeding in HD, although it still may use the RPI a bit more than Real Life, basically values Wins over poor competition much more than Real Life does.

Iguana you are usually spot on, but I think you have a mistake here.  Location is not factored in when determining the opponent's winning percentage and opponents opponents winning percentage for the RPI calculation.

Hannibal,

Can you either paste or link your source for this?  I think it's been shown numerous times that as far as RPI is concerned, away games help you more and hurt you less than games at home.

As far as WP is concerned, yes, your "away games help you more and hurt you less than games at home" statement is completely true.  RPI formula was revamped in 2004 so that away wins = 1.4 wins while a home win = 0.6 wins (so an away loss = 0.6 losses, home loss = 1.4 losses).

For OWP and OOWP, however, location is not factored in to the formula.  Away/home wins/losses = 1 win/1 loss, no matter where it happens.

Not that Wikipedia is gospel by any stretch, but just a quick Google search will give you plenty of sources in addition to this one (read the formula section):

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratings_Percentage_Index

I did that quick google search and the first link that popped up after the wikipedia sites was one that says location is factored into SOS.

http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5143295_rpi-calculated.html

and the next one after that also indicates opponents records use the same formula as the individual teams winning %

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_calculate_RPI_in_college_basketball

here's a link that show the actual section of the 2011 NCAA handbook regarding RPI and SOS

http://tomaroonandgold.blogspot.com/2011/02/ncaa-doesnt-earn-any-trust-points-with.html

Home/Away Multiplier. A multiplier of 1.4 shall be added to the OWP for those games played away from home. In addition, the same multiplier (1.4) shall be included for those games played on the road for the OOWP. A multiplier of 1/0 (no positive or negative effect) will be included in the OWP and OOWP for all neutral games. A multiplier of 0.6 shall be included in the OWP and OOWP for all home games.

 Maybe it's time to update that wikipedia page.

Posted by billscnb on 3/19/2011 1:36:00 AM (view original):
Correction-their rpi is 3. http://insider.espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rpi

LOL, helps if I look at the right year.     

Iguana, I won't argue the point as to how RPI is calculated in real life (although you may want to read the entirety of the third article you linked to).  However, in the game, I am certain that OWP and OOWP are not weighted by location.  I have done the RPI calculation by hand in the past to verify this.

@hitman, I am only talking about the SOS portion of RPI.  The 25% for adjusted winning percentage is certainly affected by location of games.

It's possible HD doesn't use the method that the NCAA uses.

I'm just suggesting that the wikipedia link you posted, stating that OWP and OOWP ignores locations, disagrees with what the NCAA says. 
Unless one chooses to believe the NCAA uses a method other than one it states in it's handbook.