Posted by isack24 on 7/7/2011 12:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jeffdrayer on 7/7/2011 2:12:00 AM (view original):
For the record, I don't think billy's trying to make any points regarding how smart/dumb he was to sign the kid.  His only argument is that after paying for 8 trips for his asst. coach to go watch a guard play, he should know how he dribbles.  That's all.

My first reaction is: hell yeah.  It's ridiculous you can't get that information after that many trips.

But my second reaction is a more metaphysical question: how does a person judge potential?  Is it possible from watching a kid in several game situations to know that he *could* one day be a 20% better dribbler?  Maybe in this particular kid's case, the only way to know is to get him on the court, at your school, and work closely with him for a couple weeks before determining how much he can improve?  Maybe he had obvious technical flaws in his free throw shot and his defense, but watching him dribble, it was just too hard to tell?  

My third reaction is that none of the above ever actually went through anyone at WIS's head at all.

My fourth reaction is: hell yeah.  It's ridiculous you can't get that information after that many trips.

I disagree with the first sentence.  Would he have made this post if the player had turned out to be high/high in all of those categories?  Doubtful.  So the question becomes what initiated the post?  The answer is that he's ****** both because the guy sucks and because of the process.

So I think it's fair to comment on everything involved, from the stupidity of the process to recruiting the actual player.

No... I knew I was taking a huge risk. I was annoyed that I couldn't find out answers from the scouting trips even then. What pushed for me to finally post about it is that this kid will now be a senior and the only way to get out of it is by going through a process that is detrimental to my team and the future of my team.

I knew it was a risk then. I made the stupid mistake of using common sense by believing that a ranked DI prospect would have SOME redeemable quality about him, so I rolled the dice on the fact that he could have high potential in areas I couldn't see. I was dumb enough to believe that WIS used some form of common sense - hence, I'm an idiot. I've been here long enough to know that (I created this name in 2005 to play HD, having already had a name for baseball back to 2003).

So instead of pretending like you are adding something substantive to the forums by just going "you're an idiot! you're an idiot! you're an idiot!" , it would be nice if we could focus on the fact that nothing about scouting trips, the ranking of prospects nor whether a kid sticks around or not makes sense.... and try to get something, anything, done about it.

**** it i'm with billy

PLEASE WIS USE SOME COMMON SENSE SO THAT I NEVER HAVE TO

Posted by pinkeye on 7/7/2011 3:40:00 PM (view original):
**** it i'm with billy

PLEASE WIS USE SOME COMMON SENSE SO THAT I NEVER HAVE TO

Can you explain to me the common sense that I'm not using? 

Other than "common sense tells me that in WIS world rankings, prospect level and scouting don't mean sh**" of course.

1) I think everyone agrees scouting trips are one part of the game we would like to see fixed and "aiming" a scouting trip at certain ratings would be something we would like to see.  This has been debated about on many, many threads.  It will probably happen in time, but it's pretty complicated and not something we can expect a fix on right now.

2) Not sure anyone else has a problem with how prospects are ranked.  They are ranked solely on their abilities now and do not take into potential, pretty much like real life.  In my opinion, that's exactly how they should be ranked.  It seems hugely flawed to think a guy has a "redeeming quality" because of where he's ranked.

3) Whether or not a kid sticks around is based around his personality, which you can find in the scouting reports.  Again, I think this is something that really isn't a problem.

Just a bit off topic, but I think there must be differences in each world as far as what D2 teams are able to recruit.  I've got an A+ prestige D2 team under all of my ID's (three different) and there was a HUGE difference as to being able to recruit ranked players.  In Tark, I could barely get ranked players to talk to my Northeastern State team.  In Rupp, I signed a PG in the high 150's (not within the 70 mile radius either), and in Crum I was able to get the backup message from centers ranked in the 110's (and was immediately able to recruit 110ish ranked centers that were within the 70 mile radius).

Again, all A+ prestige teams, so I'm not sure why there was such a difference.  Maybe certain worlds are wired just a little differently to allow teams to reach a little farther into the talent pool.  Anyone have any similar situations?  Anyone have a rational explanation as to why the huge discrepancy between worlds?

Posted by billyho1515 on 7/7/2011 3:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by pinkeye on 7/7/2011 3:40:00 PM (view original):
**** it i'm with billy

PLEASE WIS USE SOME COMMON SENSE SO THAT I NEVER HAVE TO

Can you explain to me the common sense that I'm not using? 

Other than "common sense tells me that in WIS world rankings, prospect level and scouting don't mean sh**" of course.

jetwildcat already said it

circumstantially you should have the absolute lowest expectations for this player, -=common sense=- tells me good players aren't sitting around the northeast waiting for phone calls when signings have already started

and you could have easily seen all of his potentials [and dozens more] with FSS, it's not WIS' fault you didn't have the money to scout him AND pull him down

"So instead of pretending like you are adding something substantive to the forums by just going "you're an idiot! you're an idiot! you're an idiot!" , it would be nice if we could focus on the fact that nothing about scouting trips, the ranking of prospects nor whether a kid sticks around or not makes sense.... and try to get something, anything, done about it."

You're missing the entire point.  Everyone has already acknowledged that.  There isn't one person who disagrees.  We get it.  It's been discussed about a million times.  WiS is aware.  They obviously just don't care.

So given that you're bringing up a point that's been brought up about million times before, I think it's probably fair to expect that although we care about the issue, we have no interest in commiserating.

"and in Crum I was able to get the backup message from centers ranked in the 110's (and was immediately able to recruit 110ish ranked centers that were within the 70 mile radius)."

In the past season or two?

Posted by emy1013 on 7/7/2011 3:51:00 PM (view original):
Just a bit off topic, but I think there must be differences in each world as far as what D2 teams are able to recruit.  I've got an A+ prestige D2 team under all of my ID's (three different) and there was a HUGE difference as to being able to recruit ranked players.  In Tark, I could barely get ranked players to talk to my Northeastern State team.  In Rupp, I signed a PG in the high 150's (not within the 70 mile radius either), and in Crum I was able to get the backup message from centers ranked in the 110's (and was immediately able to recruit 110ish ranked centers that were within the 70 mile radius).

Again, all A+ prestige teams, so I'm not sure why there was such a difference.  Maybe certain worlds are wired just a little differently to allow teams to reach a little farther into the talent pool.  Anyone have any similar situations?  Anyone have a rational explanation as to why the huge discrepancy between worlds?

Not all A+ are created equal. A team with 6 consecutive NC v. a team with 6 consecutive Sweet 16s, both could be A+, but the first team can recruit much higher than the 2nd one. 

Posted by isack24 on 7/7/2011 4:03:00 PM (view original):
"and in Crum I was able to get the backup message from centers ranked in the 110's (and was immediately able to recruit 110ish ranked centers that were within the 70 mile radius)."

In the past season or two?

It's happening as we speak.

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/7/2011 4:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by emy1013 on 7/7/2011 3:51:00 PM (view original):
Just a bit off topic, but I think there must be differences in each world as far as what D2 teams are able to recruit.  I've got an A+ prestige D2 team under all of my ID's (three different) and there was a HUGE difference as to being able to recruit ranked players.  In Tark, I could barely get ranked players to talk to my Northeastern State team.  In Rupp, I signed a PG in the high 150's (not within the 70 mile radius either), and in Crum I was able to get the backup message from centers ranked in the 110's (and was immediately able to recruit 110ish ranked centers that were within the 70 mile radius).

Again, all A+ prestige teams, so I'm not sure why there was such a difference.  Maybe certain worlds are wired just a little differently to allow teams to reach a little farther into the talent pool.  Anyone have any similar situations?  Anyone have a rational explanation as to why the huge discrepancy between worlds?

Not all A+ are created equal. A team with 6 consecutive NC v. a team with 6 consecutive Sweet 16s, both could be A+, but the first team can recruit much higher than the 2nd one. 

Tianyi, work with me here.  You can look at my history to see I've been playing awhile and kind of have a decent understanding of how things are supposed to work.  I realize that there are different levels of A+ prestige, but there shouldn't be THAT wide of a gap whereas one team can recruit players ranked in the 110's and another A+ prestige team can't get ranked players to even acknowledge them (and that is NOT an exaggeration).  I just find it really hard to believe that there can be THAT big of a difference.  Especially when the team that CAN recruit the 110ish ranked players has had a last four season stretch of (oldest to most recent), no NT, first round exit, Final Four, Sweet Sixteen (but with a 31-1 record and one player drafted).  Does that four year stretch really look to you like a team that should be able to reach THAT far for recruits?  I'm telling you, the worlds don't all work the same way when it comes to pulldowns/dropdowns.  I refuse to believe that they do, especially when I see examples like this with my own teams.

For the record, the team that is an A+ prestige (dropped to an A a couple of seasons ago) has made the NT 33 consecutive seasons and is the alltime winningest team in Tark D2 history (and most likely, all of HD D2 history, since Tark is so far ahead of the other worlds).  So......they have been much more consistent with their success, as opposed to a team that only had a couple of good seasons recently.

The other team, the one who could reach into the 150's, has been to 27 of the last 28 NT's (PIT the other season) and couldn't reach as far as the fly-by-night team either.  I'm just saying, again, that I'm convinced that some worlds are wired differently when it comes to recruiting.  Can't remember the names (too many teams, too many conferences), but I've seen other coaches mention the same thing on their Coaches Corner.  Again, has anyone else experienced anything like this?

Posted by emy1013 on 7/7/2011 6:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/7/2011 4:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by emy1013 on 7/7/2011 3:51:00 PM (view original):
Just a bit off topic, but I think there must be differences in each world as far as what D2 teams are able to recruit.  I've got an A+ prestige D2 team under all of my ID's (three different) and there was a HUGE difference as to being able to recruit ranked players.  In Tark, I could barely get ranked players to talk to my Northeastern State team.  In Rupp, I signed a PG in the high 150's (not within the 70 mile radius either), and in Crum I was able to get the backup message from centers ranked in the 110's (and was immediately able to recruit 110ish ranked centers that were within the 70 mile radius).

Again, all A+ prestige teams, so I'm not sure why there was such a difference.  Maybe certain worlds are wired just a little differently to allow teams to reach a little farther into the talent pool.  Anyone have any similar situations?  Anyone have a rational explanation as to why the huge discrepancy between worlds?

Not all A+ are created equal. A team with 6 consecutive NC v. a team with 6 consecutive Sweet 16s, both could be A+, but the first team can recruit much higher than the 2nd one. 

Tianyi, work with me here.  You can look at my history to see I've been playing awhile and kind of have a decent understanding of how things are supposed to work.  I realize that there are different levels of A+ prestige, but there shouldn't be THAT wide of a gap whereas one team can recruit players ranked in the 110's and another A+ prestige team can't get ranked players to even acknowledge them (and that is NOT an exaggeration).  I just find it really hard to believe that there can be THAT big of a difference.  Especially when the team that CAN recruit the 110ish ranked players has had a last four season stretch of (oldest to most recent), no NT, first round exit, Final Four, Sweet Sixteen (but with a 31-1 record and one player drafted).  Does that four year stretch really look to you like a team that should be able to reach THAT far for recruits?  I'm telling you, the worlds don't all work the same way when it comes to pulldowns/dropdowns.  I refuse to believe that they do, especially when I see examples like this with my own teams.

For the record, the team that is an A+ prestige (dropped to an A a couple of seasons ago) has made the NT 33 consecutive seasons and is the alltime winningest team in Tark D2 history (and most likely, all of HD D2 history, since Tark is so far ahead of the other worlds).  So......they have been much more consistent with their success, as opposed to a team that only had a couple of good seasons recently.

The other team, the one who could reach into the 150's, has been to 27 of the last 28 NT's (PIT the other season) and couldn't reach as far as the fly-by-night team either.  I'm just saying, again, that I'm convinced that some worlds are wired differently when it comes to recruiting.  Can't remember the names (too many teams, too many conferences), but I've seen other coaches mention the same thing on their Coaches Corner.  Again, has anyone else experienced anything like this?

Are you sure the A+ team that reached into the 110s can talk to all the players ranked #110 to #200 and the other A+ team cannot talk to any of the players ranked in the the 150s? There has been posts by coaches who said that they can get the #170 PG but not the #192 PG. 

What was the record and NT performance of your Northeastern team? I'm seeing Northeastern as A for the past 2 seasons. A v. A+ is a big difference in dropdown/pulldown.

You can believe that worlds work differently, but that means WIS is using different codes/engine for a different worlds. This seems like a lot of work and extremely difficult to maintain when it comes to engine update. I'm fairly certain WIS use the same engine for all worlds. Your confusion may simply stem from our understanding of the engine is imperfect. Maybe something regarding # of open scholarships and # of available players per level is affecting how high a team can pulldown/dropdown. 

That's another thing that I feel like has changed.  It's used to be that if a team could get the, say, #170 PG, they could get everyone from him back (back meaning 170, 171, 172, etc. all the way back to unranked players).  I've experienced it myself recently where I could get a player who was (for argument's sake, I can't remember the exact numbers) the #150 ranked Center, but couldn't get the #170 Center.  I thought it was a fluke, but after I had it happen on a couple different teams, I chalked it up to another unannounced change by WIS.

As far as the #110ish team and #150 team, I'm almost 100% positive in who I could get and who I couldn't.  I send out a ton of phone calls at the start of recruiting to find out just how far I can reach and what's a little too much.  I probably end up wasting alot of money that way actually, but I like to know just what's available to me and what's out of reach.

It might not be that each world has its own code, it could be one code that works on a sliding scale.  Maybe a mid-level A+ is comparatively better (in that world) than a better A+ in another world.  I don't think any of us know how it works.