again, humans were just fine until the change was made

I agree with OR on this one.  It's darn near impossible to be a mid major in an area like the Big 10 or Big East and recruit anything resembling a good prospect, given their giant budgets.  And since there's a hard potential cap, the diamonds in the rough are basically non-existant.  Even if you do catch lightning in a bottle and develop a good NT team, sustainability is much, much harder now than it was before the change.

Your conference is filled with Sims which goes exactly to my point...all things being equal the biggest advantage of a big 6 conference is movement in prestige because of baseline.  Ive long argued that there should be two types of prestige one for hiring which focuses on baseline; and current prestige which focuses on performance and is used in recruiting.  In your example, your conference would be able to compete if full as you'd continue to have the same recruiting money.  In the old days anyone could be competitive because there was so much suppply that there was no challenge to recruiting.  It sucked when there were 100 DI teams that all looked identical and many including OR were referring to that period as "Coin flip dynasty".

The "realism" in HD is reflective of the NCAA where the rich get richer.  I don't disagree with that point.  My disagreement is in that I don't believe recruit generation is the culprit.  I suggest that as kman and mmt do that the best coaches flock to the Big 6 conferences and with most low and mid-major conferences either sim-filled or transient stops for coaches the effect of the Big 6 full human, better coaches (generally speaking) really kicks in and that is what is happening now.  Quite like the NCAA in football and basketball. 

I do think it interesting if 12 good coaches would go to a mid-major conference with fertile recruiting grounds and see what would happen then.  This thread is merely a difference of opinion on the vision of the game.  As much as i respect your opinion and gameplaying skills in HD, on this discussion I strongly believe that there is no right or wrong OR.

Posted by mmt0315 on 7/18/2011 5:27:00 PM (view original):
Your conference is filled with Sims which goes exactly to my point...all things being equal the biggest advantage of a big 6 conference is movement in prestige because of baseline.  Ive long argued that there should be two types of prestige one for hiring which focuses on baseline; and current prestige which focuses on performance and is used in recruiting.  In your example, your conference would be able to compete if full as you'd continue to have the same recruiting money.  In the old days anyone could be competitive because there was so much suppply that there was no challenge to recruiting.  It sucked when there were 100 DI teams that all looked identical and many including OR were referring to that period as "Coin flip dynasty".

mmt - a history lesson - coin flip was caused by the change to recruit generation known as prestige - tarek made the change then essentially left the game to seble if I recall.  many top coaches quit the game during that time frame (the largest exodus from the game I ever recall), with FSS maxing guys out in their frosh or soph season, all players had about the same rating - it is a math thing.  It took about 6 or 8 months, but Seble made an excellent fix to the game that ended coinf flip dynasty.  I think few would disagree that the problems we saw back then started with the initial FSS change, and ended with the fix to it.  Most of this stuff is not that hard to pin point, you just have to keep your eyes open - these glitches show themselves as self evident.

Posted by namshub on 7/18/2011 5:57:00 PM (view original):
The "realism" in HD is reflective of the NCAA where the rich get richer.  I don't disagree with that point.  My disagreement is in that I don't believe recruit generation is the culprit.  I suggest that as kman and mmt do that the best coaches flock to the Big 6 conferences and with most low and mid-major conferences either sim-filled or transient stops for coaches the effect of the Big 6 full human, better coaches (generally speaking) really kicks in and that is what is happening now.  Quite like the NCAA in football and basketball. 

I do think it interesting if 12 good coaches would go to a mid-major conference with fertile recruiting grounds and see what would happen then.  This thread is merely a difference of opinion on the vision of the game.  As much as i respect your opinion and gameplaying skills in HD, on this discussion I strongly believe that there is no right or wrong OR.

simply speaking, something caused coaches to leave d1, it is the cause you are citing even, so there is a answer - we just have a difference of opinion on what caused the emptying of d1 - I am saying coaches left because it is unfair - u are saying it became unfair after coaches left - I don't think my POV is that illogical vs yours - I at least have a reason for the coaches leaving - do you - you can always try mass hysteria????

heck nams - I will do you one better, cause I really need to quit this folly, I honestly don't care any longer, I just feel bad for the coaches stuck with this mess, the reason coaches left low level d1 - I will answer it for you - giving out full rewards points for d2 and d3 - there - I am not such a bad guy now am I - take care - I will be back at some point to renew this battle I suppose, but I sure hope not!

Posted by oldresorter on 7/18/2011 6:33:00 PM (view original):
heck nams - I will do you one better, cause I really need to quit this folly, I honestly don't care any longer, I just feel bad for the coaches stuck with this mess, the reason coaches left low level d1 - I will answer it for you - giving out full rewards points for d2 and d3 - there - I am not such a bad guy now am I - take care - I will be back at some point to renew this battle I suppose, but I sure hope not!

I liked your idea of making there be a minimum spent on 5 stars.  I think that's a huge problem right now...A+ prestige schools can get away with spending under $10thd on a 5 star player because nobody wants to battle that prestige or the massive recruiting budget that comes from being in a Big 6 conference.  So they then have that much more to beat up the few brave souls that are willing to battle for an elite local player, making it all but impossible.  Make it a...$15thd minimum for a 5 star and that will make the super elite schools actually have to work for the 5 5-star starting lineups.  

Posted by oldresorter on 7/18/2011 6:33:00 PM (view original):
heck nams - I will do you one better, cause I really need to quit this folly, I honestly don't care any longer, I just feel bad for the coaches stuck with this mess, the reason coaches left low level d1 - I will answer it for you - giving out full rewards points for d2 and d3 - there - I am not such a bad guy now am I - take care - I will be back at some point to renew this battle I suppose, but I sure hope not!

OR, that's why i normally only post once in a thread and don't post in most threads.  my rule:  if this game or the forums become stressful then i walk away.  By the way, the quick expansion of worlds and the two a day worlds certainly didn't help competition at DI in most worlds.  When did those occur on the time line.  Saturation of the market.  That's a point nobody has mentioned.

Anyway, i'm not trying to argue or win a game of logic with you or anyone else.  I'm just posting my thoughts for purposes of discussion.  I think my overall point in the first post was that there is no right or wrong and i guess i'll stand by that point.   

Reading this thread makes me think that Allen is somehow the land of parity.  Despite the ACC winning something like six of the last seven NT's, the runners-up in many of those tournaments were from a variety of conferences.  And one only has to go back about nine seasons to see Southern as the big winner. 

Posted by mullycj on 7/17/2011 2:47:00 PM (view original):
Top 25 rated teams in Smith.  Count the number of non-major schools.  Its been the same as Naismith for several seasons now.

	School	Players	A	SPD	REB	DE	BLK	LP	PE	BH	P	WE	ST	DU	FT	TOT
1.	Maryland	12	96	73	54	94	51	58	71	70	74	51	76	70	B-	837
2.	Oregon St.	12	93	66	57	93	50	66	71	70	71	59	77	60	B-	833
3.	Louisiana St.	12	84	63	57	87	55	69	66	69	66	63	76	72	B-	828
4.	Alabama	12	90	67	58	92	46	72	74	66	66	57	78	55	B-	821
5.	Kentucky	12	89	66	58	87	50	62	66	69	73	50	74	61	C+	805
6.	UNC	12	89	65	59	90	50	52	60	63	66	56	76	73	C+	799
7.	Georgia	12	88	59	59	89	51	60	56	63	64	59	73	68	C+	789
8.	Auburn	12	81	63	46	83	40	49	73	64	71	67	80	70	B-	787
9.	Arizona St.	12	76	58	65	78	56	67	55	62	62	62	75	61	C	776
10.	Arkansas	12	85	59	60	85	51	60	54	57	63	63	73	64	C	774
11.	Connecticut	12	83	67	47	87	43	60	62	65	68	57	71	63	B-	774
12.	Vanderbilt	12	76	58	57	84	48	58	52	66	57	64	78	71	C+	770
13.	Stanford	12	77	60	63	84	51	69	60	62	61	49	74	55	C+	765
14.	UCLA	12	87	67	46	83	39	57	60	62	67	59	73	62	C	761
15.	Syracuse	12	80	61	51	86	44	48	66	67	66	54	75	61	C+	760
16.	Miami (FL)	12	87	62	54	85	46	60	51	63	63	55	72	60	C+	757
17.	Michigan St.	12	78	59	55	78	47	61	47	63	65	65	74	65	C+	756
18.	Texas	12	80	63	52	80	42	58	64	57	65	54	76	63	C	754
19.	Illinois	12	79	66	44	80	37	51	61	63	66	66	78	61	C+	752
20.	Kansas	12	81	61	52	84	47	65	49	56	65	58	78	54	B-	748
21.	Providence	12	75	62	54	79	42	59	57	63	61	63	75	59	C+	748
22.	S. Carolina	12	71	57	52	73	42	59	61	58	50	77	79	68	B-	746
23.	USC	12	74	50	61	76	49	60	53	55	55	70	76	66	B-	744
24.	Ohio St.	12	80	57	55	79	48	66	58	59	60	54	71	52	C	739
25.	St. Johns	12	76	60	46	79	32	53	55	58	56	76	76	63	B-	730

Bingo.

I think one issue is the way recruiting monies are handed out.  While that gives more chance for movement within the conference, and gives very little chance for turnover outside of the conference.  That, or lower level recruits simply need to be slightly better; either fix would help the problem.

The LARGEST issue though is TOO MANY SIMS.  HD needs to recruit more players, do another free season give away perhaps, get a mobile app, etc.  The bottom line is that HD needs more human players, and I think you'll see a lot more balance with mid major conferences.

The biggest difference I see between HD and real life is that in real life, coaches are able to produce Sweet 16/Top 25 calibre programs without recruiting 4 and 5 star players. That strategy has very limited application in HD. There needs to be a way for mid-major programs to develop or find quality players that BCS schools would generally pass on,  but nevertheless become good enough to allow those schools to be competitive, just like in real life. Whether that means reducing the dropoff between the top tier players and adding more low-to-mid star type players, or producing more low initial-rated players with High-HIgh potentials, or increasing the impact of A and A+ IQ's, I'd say those types of approaches are the best fix to this problem.

Posted by jslotman on 7/19/2011 9:25:00 AM (view original):
Reading this thread makes me think that Allen is somehow the land of parity.  Despite the ACC winning something like six of the last seven NT's, the runners-up in many of those tournaments were from a variety of conferences.  And one only has to go back about nine seasons to see Southern as the big winner. 

Allen's got the best conference in HD, I think - and probably the worst Big Six conference in HD, too... but the parity 2-5 and particularly 2-4 (sorry, SEC) is just great.

9 seasons ago in Allen was before new recruit generation.  As OR posted earlier in the thread, the worlds have been filled entirely with new-style recruits for four seasons in the one-a-day worlds and about 8 seasons in the two-a-day worlds.