And as for dynasties, five seasons ago, Thomas (which ran press at the time) finished up one of the greatest six-season runs in D3 history.

Posted by isack24 on 7/21/2011 7:09:00 PM (view original):
Who said anything about dynasties?  You brought that up.

We're talking about viability.  If "everyone" is running it and press teams dominate Wooden, it's clearly more than viable.

If you are going to bite into my premise like that (viability based on # of teams running it), then clearly press is inferior to m2m. There are more M2M teams than press teams in all worlds, among all levels, and M2M teams have more championships in the other 9 D3 worlds. Since you are defining viability as # of teams running it successfully or just # of teams running it, Press < M2M. 

I didn't define it that way.  It's clearly viable in Wooden because it works.  You can give me reasons why (% of teams running it), but it doesn't change its statistical success.

I have no doubt, based on my knowledge of the engine and recruits generated, that it is easier to win at D3 using press.  You may disagree, but there really isn't a way to prove it.  But it seems very clear to me that the engine is generating a serious lack of players at lower levels who can pass and handle the ball, while still creating high ath/spd/def guys.  

Posted by isack24 on 7/21/2011 7:22:00 PM (view original):
I didn't define it that way.  It's clearly viable in Wooden because it works.  You can give me reasons why (% of teams running it), but it doesn't change its statistical success.

I have no doubt, based on my knowledge of the engine and recruits generated, that it is easier to win at D3 using press.  You may disagree, but there really isn't a way to prove it.  But it seems very clear to me that the engine is generating a serious lack of players at lower levels who can pass and handle the ball, while still creating high ath/spd/def guys.  

You are forgetting stamina. 65ath/55spd/55def team is great for a D3 press, but you can easily fall short in the stamina category and get blown out against a team running uptempo. And I'm fairly confident to say that a 65ath/55spd/55def m2m team will outperform a similar press team. Potential fouls under the press, huge rebound reduction (I have had 60 ath, 99 reb bigs avg less than 7 reb/game in 25min with the press, while my team was outrebounded for the whole season), and stamina problem makes press teams more easily to upset. 

If you are that confident that the press is overpowered (something you have posted about for the past 6 months), why don't you prove it in action. Get a D3 press team on your other ID and win a few NCs with it. 

And since you want to define Wooden's D3 press as statistical, how do you explain the lack of FCP dominance in the other 9 worlds? So I guess the other 9 worlds are the statistical anomalies, right? And don't say there are more M2M teams in the other worlds, because you just stated the % of teams running a defense shouldn't matter when we just viability or superiority. 

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/21/2011 7:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by pepwaves on 7/21/2011 5:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/21/2011 3:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by isack24 on 7/21/2011 3:18:00 PM (view original):
"Seems like the press is getting stronger again, and I think its due to the lack of guards that can dribble and pass more than anything else."

I've been saying this about D3 for probably a year.

yet, I can't find any press dynasties at d3. 

Beloit in Wooden? 

Guess you don't have views to other worlds. When I say dynasty, I'm thinking teams with histories like this:

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=12761

http://whatifsports.com/hd/teamprofile/History.aspx?tid=4609

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=13648

Ah. So that's what you mean by "dynasty". Fair enough...

But, I'd argue that Beloit is getting pretty close to the kind of success those three teams enjoyed. Seven Final Four appearances in the last 9 years is pretty amazing. If Paul wins a few more championships, I think we can call Beloit a dynasty. Just my opinion...

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/21/2011 7:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by isack24 on 7/21/2011 7:22:00 PM (view original):
I didn't define it that way.  It's clearly viable in Wooden because it works.  You can give me reasons why (% of teams running it), but it doesn't change its statistical success.

I have no doubt, based on my knowledge of the engine and recruits generated, that it is easier to win at D3 using press.  You may disagree, but there really isn't a way to prove it.  But it seems very clear to me that the engine is generating a serious lack of players at lower levels who can pass and handle the ball, while still creating high ath/spd/def guys.  

You are forgetting stamina. 65ath/55spd/55def team is great for a D3 press, but you can easily fall short in the stamina category and get blown out against a team running uptempo. And I'm fairly confident to say that a 65ath/55spd/55def m2m team will outperform a similar press team. Potential fouls under the press, huge rebound reduction (I have had 60 ath, 99 reb bigs avg less than 7 reb/game in 25min with the press, while my team was outrebounded for the whole season), and stamina problem makes press teams more easily to upset. 

If you are that confident that the press is overpowered (something you have posted about for the past 6 months), why don't you prove it in action. Get a D3 press team on your other ID and win a few NCs with it. 

And since you want to define Wooden's D3 press as statistical, how do you explain the lack of FCP dominance in the other 9 worlds? So I guess the other 9 worlds are the statistical anomalies, right? And don't say there are more M2M teams in the other worlds, because you just stated the % of teams running a defense shouldn't matter when we just viability or superiority. 

Sure, the m2m team will foul less (probably), but without bh/pass, any team is going to turn the ball over A TON against a 65/55/55 press team.  

Because: (a) I like running man, and I ran it even when press was clearly dominant; and (b) I simply don't have time for another team right now.  It's something I'd like to prove, but even if I did it, I acknowledge it wouldn't be definitive proof anyway.

I don't have any idea.  I'm only familiar with one D3 world.  In that world, there have been some great man teams in the past ten seasons and none have won an NT.  I can't speak to other worlds.  Frankly, my guess is that great coaches could win with any defense, so that's not really where this argument lies for me.  My problem is that without bh/pass, a great man team can lose to a decent-but-not-great press team with ease because there's no way to combat TOs.

And the only other world I play in, Allen, 7 of the past 10 champs in D3 run press.  So I don't know what to say, in my two worlds, the press clearly dominates D3.

Posted by isack24 on 7/21/2011 7:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/21/2011 7:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by isack24 on 7/21/2011 7:22:00 PM (view original):
I didn't define it that way.  It's clearly viable in Wooden because it works.  You can give me reasons why (% of teams running it), but it doesn't change its statistical success.

I have no doubt, based on my knowledge of the engine and recruits generated, that it is easier to win at D3 using press.  You may disagree, but there really isn't a way to prove it.  But it seems very clear to me that the engine is generating a serious lack of players at lower levels who can pass and handle the ball, while still creating high ath/spd/def guys.  

You are forgetting stamina. 65ath/55spd/55def team is great for a D3 press, but you can easily fall short in the stamina category and get blown out against a team running uptempo. And I'm fairly confident to say that a 65ath/55spd/55def m2m team will outperform a similar press team. Potential fouls under the press, huge rebound reduction (I have had 60 ath, 99 reb bigs avg less than 7 reb/game in 25min with the press, while my team was outrebounded for the whole season), and stamina problem makes press teams more easily to upset. 

If you are that confident that the press is overpowered (something you have posted about for the past 6 months), why don't you prove it in action. Get a D3 press team on your other ID and win a few NCs with it. 

And since you want to define Wooden's D3 press as statistical, how do you explain the lack of FCP dominance in the other 9 worlds? So I guess the other 9 worlds are the statistical anomalies, right? And don't say there are more M2M teams in the other worlds, because you just stated the % of teams running a defense shouldn't matter when we just viability or superiority. 

Sure, the m2m team will foul less (probably), but without bh/pass, any team is going to turn the ball over A TON against a 65/55/55 press team.  

Because: (a) I like running man, and I ran it even when press was clearly dominant; and (b) I simply don't have time for another team right now.  It's something I'd like to prove, but even if I did it, I acknowledge it wouldn't be definitive proof anyway.

I don't have any idea.  I'm only familiar with one D3 world.  In that world, there have been some great man teams in the past ten seasons and none have won an NT.  I can't speak to other worlds.  Frankly, my guess is that great coaches could win with any defense, so that's not really where this argument lies for me.  My problem is that without bh/pass, a great man team can lose to a decent-but-not-great press team with ease because there's no way to combat TOs.

I have a 65/55/55 press team in Tark, and I lose games (sometimes, multiple games) to m2m teams with team avg of 55/50/50 every season. T/O and fouls have higher variability than a teams ability to lower fg%, this means it's harder for a press team to stay consistent. When you don't draw out 18+ t/os or foul out 2 guards against a competitive team with the press, you lose. 

And in Allen and Wooden D2, 5 of the last 6 champs in each are press teams.  Although my argument is mostly geared towards D3. 

So you can say all the other worlds, but in the ONLY two I play in, press runs the show at the elite level.

Again, if you think press overpowered, then switch your team to the press. Take advantage of the press. I'm looking to move up in my D3 worlds and I'm only looking for M2M teams. 

You like man even though you think the press is better, what's the logic here?

my 2 cents, fcp is best in d2 & d3, man in d1 for the high end teams, although if I was going to try to win every year with a D prestige d1 school, I might pick fcp too, the reason I don't think fcp works at the high end of d1, you can no longer year in and year out recruit 12 man teams full of ath / sp / def. that still have enough core power to win a national title - a good result from the change to recruit generation that I so oppose - which you often don't hear from me.  Also, this is somewhat real life, d2/d3 schools are more likely to press and play really deep rosters than top flight d1 programs, who more often that not these days play pretty shallow rotations.  The reason I might try fcp with a D prestige school, I would recruit deep teams of 580 level guys who were suited to fcp, regardless of core skills, and take my chances, since a D prestige school really isn't going to be able to slug it out with the 850-950 level players the top end d1 team play with going man to man. 

My son and I were just talking about how high level d1 recruiting is somewhat about bringing in ranked guys - regardless of the fit - and if they fail - you send them packing - while in d2/d3 coaches much more recruit 'their' kind of guy - obviously all d1 coaches try to get their kind of guy too, but few will pass on a highly ranked local guy, regardless of what type of player he is.  At d2/d3, there are dozens of kids all pretty much the same, hence, you can be choosier for specific skills, again, sort of like the way the game is right now - for those who are counting, that is two compliments towards the new recruiting system.

One of the reason we have had success in moderately high level aau, is my son has gotten lots of players that are not d1 prospects, but are better basketball players as 15 or 16 year olds ... our best team has a 6'1" 215lb  pf, who is 15 years old, started at mlb/fb on a division 1 hs football team, played PG on his hs basketball team, and looks like he is 21, he shuts down these 15 year old 6'8" pinhead type PF kids that our state has coming out of its ears, breaks the press, gets the ball in the high post vs zones and distributes, but lets face it, those 6'8", 175 lb pinheads are going to get d1 offers, our kid won't.

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/21/2011 7:55:00 PM (view original):
Again, if you think press overpowered, then switch your team to the press. Take advantage of the press. I'm looking to move up in my D3 worlds and I'm only looking for M2M teams. 

You like man even though you think the press is better, what's the logic here?

Because I like holding teams to low FG% and playing good, halfcourt defense.  I'm not saying there aren't advantages to playing man, and I've obviously had some success doing it.  I'm just saying I think the advantages of the press at D3 outweigh those of man.  Doesn't mean I have to switch defenses.  I would rather win trying to play my way.  I don't expect sympathy and don't hold it against anyone playing press.

Posted by isack24 on 7/21/2011 8:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/21/2011 7:55:00 PM (view original):
Again, if you think press overpowered, then switch your team to the press. Take advantage of the press. I'm looking to move up in my D3 worlds and I'm only looking for M2M teams. 

You like man even though you think the press is better, what's the logic here?

Because I like holding teams to low FG% and playing good, halfcourt defense.  I'm not saying there aren't advantages to playing man, and I've obviously had some success doing it.  I'm just saying I think the advantages of the press at D3 outweigh those of man.  Doesn't mean I have to switch defenses.  I would rather win trying to play my way.  I don't expect sympathy and don't hold it against anyone playing press.

I'm still hanging around, a quick comment i-24, i think much like playing fcp in d1, if I was willing to sacrifice a little bit of offense, I (anyone) could play m2m pretty well in d3, there seems to be some monster DEF guys around, my current d3 team has a 90 DEF player who I am pretty sure helps my team enormously, even though his off skills are somewhat lacking, I often wonder what a team of d3 guys like him might do?

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/21/2011 7:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by isack24 on 7/21/2011 7:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/21/2011 7:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by isack24 on 7/21/2011 7:22:00 PM (view original):
I didn't define it that way.  It's clearly viable in Wooden because it works.  You can give me reasons why (% of teams running it), but it doesn't change its statistical success.

I have no doubt, based on my knowledge of the engine and recruits generated, that it is easier to win at D3 using press.  You may disagree, but there really isn't a way to prove it.  But it seems very clear to me that the engine is generating a serious lack of players at lower levels who can pass and handle the ball, while still creating high ath/spd/def guys.  

You are forgetting stamina. 65ath/55spd/55def team is great for a D3 press, but you can easily fall short in the stamina category and get blown out against a team running uptempo. And I'm fairly confident to say that a 65ath/55spd/55def m2m team will outperform a similar press team. Potential fouls under the press, huge rebound reduction (I have had 60 ath, 99 reb bigs avg less than 7 reb/game in 25min with the press, while my team was outrebounded for the whole season), and stamina problem makes press teams more easily to upset. 

If you are that confident that the press is overpowered (something you have posted about for the past 6 months), why don't you prove it in action. Get a D3 press team on your other ID and win a few NCs with it. 

And since you want to define Wooden's D3 press as statistical, how do you explain the lack of FCP dominance in the other 9 worlds? So I guess the other 9 worlds are the statistical anomalies, right? And don't say there are more M2M teams in the other worlds, because you just stated the % of teams running a defense shouldn't matter when we just viability or superiority. 

Sure, the m2m team will foul less (probably), but without bh/pass, any team is going to turn the ball over A TON against a 65/55/55 press team.  

Because: (a) I like running man, and I ran it even when press was clearly dominant; and (b) I simply don't have time for another team right now.  It's something I'd like to prove, but even if I did it, I acknowledge it wouldn't be definitive proof anyway.

I don't have any idea.  I'm only familiar with one D3 world.  In that world, there have been some great man teams in the past ten seasons and none have won an NT.  I can't speak to other worlds.  Frankly, my guess is that great coaches could win with any defense, so that's not really where this argument lies for me.  My problem is that without bh/pass, a great man team can lose to a decent-but-not-great press team with ease because there's no way to combat TOs.

I have a 65/55/55 press team in Tark, and I lose games (sometimes, multiple games) to m2m teams with team avg of 55/50/50 every season. T/O and fouls have higher variability than a teams ability to lower fg%, this means it's harder for a press team to stay consistent. When you don't draw out 18+ t/os or foul out 2 guards against a competitive team with the press, you lose. 

Showing me 3 ratings, even the 3 most important ones, leaves out WAY too much of the story for this to be meaningful information.  I don't want to get heavily involved in this argument, but I would like to point out that for most of narcotico's time at Greensboro he was running the press, including for at least the first threepeat...

Posted by oldresorter on 7/21/2011 8:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by isack24 on 7/21/2011 8:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/21/2011 7:55:00 PM (view original):
Again, if you think press overpowered, then switch your team to the press. Take advantage of the press. I'm looking to move up in my D3 worlds and I'm only looking for M2M teams. 

You like man even though you think the press is better, what's the logic here?

Because I like holding teams to low FG% and playing good, halfcourt defense.  I'm not saying there aren't advantages to playing man, and I've obviously had some success doing it.  I'm just saying I think the advantages of the press at D3 outweigh those of man.  Doesn't mean I have to switch defenses.  I would rather win trying to play my way.  I don't expect sympathy and don't hold it against anyone playing press.

I'm still hanging around, a quick comment i-24, i think much like playing fcp in d1, if I was willing to sacrifice a little bit of offense, I (anyone) could play m2m pretty well in d3, there seems to be some monster DEF guys around, my current d3 team has a 90 DEF player who I am pretty sure helps my team enormously, even though his off skills are somewhat lacking, I often wonder what a team of d3 guys like him might do?

I've thought about trying to put a team like that together.  If there were more high bh/pass guards, I think that team could be very successful in D3.  I wonder, though, if a team can survive against decent def/great off teams, even with the amazing defense.  Probably would be pretty conducive to upsets both ways, I would think.