After running the zone 5+ seasons now, I can pretty firmly say that no matter what type of player you put in the zone, you're not going to see a lot of steals.

This is nonsensical. 

Zone defenses create a lot of steals, 3-2 and 1-3-1 zones often create MORE steals, and 2-3 zones can create just as many as a m2m defense.  One of the biggest things that bothered me from first joining WIS is that there was no 1-3-1 zone option.

Pressing is one thing, but there's no reason the engine should give m2m more steals than zone, and it clearly does.

i have one zone team (D2) and two m2m teams (D1).  obviously comparing across worlds isn't the most accurate thing, but all 3 teams are pretty good and are having nice seasons. regardless, my m2m teams are averaging 7.2(against 48 SOS) and 8.9 (against 161 SOS) steals per game, while my zone team is averaging 7.1 (against 53 SOS). 

your team is averaging about 7 steals per game so far...which is right in the same ballpark as most non-press teams you've played.  you could make an argument that maybe a zone team could have more steals, but i dont think it's an issue that you can call "nonsensical."  it's not like zone teams are struggling to top 3 or 4 steals per game

I've charted it out in excel comparing teams that run zone and m2m, m2m has a small, but clear advantage. 

Notice, my steals are only where they are because of the last 4 games really, playing the horrible SIM in conference teams in the WCC.

The point wasn't that there was any giant disparity, merely that it was clear that m2m produces more steals given the same stats as zone; which makes no sense.

The fact that there's no 1-3-1 in HD has been a bone of contention from the start, since I'd say it's the 2nd most run defense in D-1 right now, so it's a bit of a sore spot!

Why doesn't it make any sense that M2M produces more steals than a Zone?  Without looking at any numbers, I would guess that a Man defense would produce more steals, simply because, in my mind, Man is a more agressive type of D and Zone a bit more passive.  I'm too lazy to look up numbers right now, but it would be interesting if someone could find some real-life stats to see if HD is in line or way out of whack with reality.

Really though, the first thing that ran through my head while reading this thread is that Grant seems to want all the defenses to produce the same numbers.  If so, what's the point of having any different defenses in the first place?  Each D has pros and cons attached to them, we're all smart enough to know that.  So a M2M D produces more steals?  So what?  They also tire faster than players in a Zone.  Trade-off number one.  Press causes more turnovers, but Zones commit fewer fouls.  We could go on and on and on.  Point being, just because a Zone doesn't produce as many steals as a M2M D doesn't mean anything is wrong.  It's simply a trade-off you make when deciding which one to play.........

zone has a very large edge in blocking shots

I don't understand the comment that a 1-3-1 is the second most played defense in CBB.  Not sure what grant has been watching.

Posted by dcy0827 on 8/6/2011 1:42:00 PM (view original):
Why doesn't it make any sense that M2M produces more steals than a Zone?  Without looking at any numbers, I would guess that a Man defense would produce more steals, simply because, in my mind, Man is a more agressive type of D and Zone a bit more passive.  I'm too lazy to look up numbers right now, but it would be interesting if someone could find some real-life stats to see if HD is in line or way out of whack with reality.

Really though, the first thing that ran through my head while reading this thread is that Grant seems to want all the defenses to produce the same numbers.  If so, what's the point of having any different defenses in the first place?  Each D has pros and cons attached to them, we're all smart enough to know that.  So a M2M D produces more steals?  So what?  They also tire faster than players in a Zone.  Trade-off number one.  Press causes more turnovers, but Zones commit fewer fouls.  We could go on and on and on.  Point being, just because a Zone doesn't produce as many steals as a M2M D doesn't mean anything is wrong.  It's simply a trade-off you make when deciding which one to play.........

While I understand your point about trade-offs, the reality is in actual basketball, m2m does not produce more steals than a zone defense.  A simple example is that  Syracuse led the Big East in SPG last year running a zone.  If you look at a more full set of data comparing zone/m2m, the steals in fact slighty favor m2m. In fact, many zones produce MORE steals than m2m, especially the 1-3-1.

Posted by cburton23 on 8/7/2011 11:14:00 AM (view original):
I don't understand the comment that a 1-3-1 is the second most played defense in CBB.  Not sure what grant has been watching.

It is.  Do I need to list out all the teams running 1-3-1 for you?

It's more than run a 2-3 or press as a base defense.

M2M is king by a long shot, but 1-3-1 is the 2nd most run defense in D-1 right now as a base defense.

Beilein was known for the 1-3-1 at west va and he only runs it late game out of necessity at Michigan. The 2-3 is without a doubt the most prevalent zone in real life D-1

So many teams today run a match-up zone it is really difficult to specify what the set up is.  Heck even Syracuse doesn't run a true 2-3 anymore, but to say more teams run a 1-3-1 is a stretch.