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why doomey? it's false because you want it to be false?

you can't compare this to real life. whether you want it to be true or not, there are an extra 15 or so spots to be filled. those players have to come from somewhere and until you have proof that there are (more than just 1 or 2, because like real life the best players aren't always the ones that declare early) significantly better seniors that are going undrafted so that less talented underclassmen can leave early, then it's moot.

regardless, you still have the random element of who leaves early AND you have the fact that there is less distribution of the top players than you would see in real life and as a result the best players in this game are more clustered to the top programs. then there is the fact that the draft is so skewed in favor of bigs. the easiest solution to this entire problem might be to fix that aspect of it so that bigs and guards are drafted more evenly which would result in more good senior guards getting picked up and less need for "extra" bigs to fill out the draft by way of early entry.

is there a lot working against the top teams? sure. would it be better if one team didnt lose 7 in a season? yeah i would agree that it would be. but something isn't a systemic problem just because it happens once or twice compared to real life when it's not even something that can fairly be compared in the first place.

9/18/2011 5:19 PM

doomey

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Again, you are acting as if that has always been the case in RL and that there is no blueprint for what a non-international draft would look like and that is just wrong. You only have to go back a little more than a decade to see drafts, with EE's, in RL that had limited or no internationals. You seem to be the one making up situations to match your worldview on this one. I can also say unequivicably that it isn't the best 60 and that there are better seniors sitting home, to deny that is just sticking your head in the sand. Even the #7 guy I had drafted wasn't the 7th best player on my own team.

And I don't know how you can say it isn't a systemic problem when it happens nearly every WIS draft. Just because it doesn't happen to you, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

9/18/2011 7:14 PM (edited)

girt25

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Posted by Trentonjoe on 9/18/2011 2:53:00 PM (view original):
If it's me your talking about I didn't say that at all.

My premise is the best 60 guys should get drafted, I don't care how many are on the same team.

It seems to be, some people have an issue with how the "best" 60 are calculated.

joe, I think saying that "the best 60 players should get drafted" is incredibly myopic.

That's suggesting we should ignore player personality, team success, other items related to the game (i.e not losing 7 EE's from one team) and just general randomness.

9/18/2011 7:30 PM

girt25

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And there are certainly numerous non-drafted seniors in HD who are better than guys in the draft (both underclassmen and seniors who get drafted). I'd be surprised that anyone who really paid attention to the draft would disagree. It's fairly common.

That said, I think that is a separate issue from the main issue at play here.

9/18/2011 7:32 PM

bow2dacowz

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Posted by doomey on 9/18/2011 7:14:00 PM (view original):
Again, you are acting as if that has always been the case in RL and that there is no blueprint for what a non-international draft would look like and that is just wrong. You only have to go back a little more than a decade to see drafts, with EE's, in RL that had limited or no internationals. You seem to be the one making up situations to match your worldview on this one. I can also say unequivicably that it isn't the best 60 and that there are better seniors sitting home, to deny that is just sticking your head in the sand. Even the #7 guy I had drafted wasn't the 7th best player on my own team.

And I don't know how you can say it isn't a systemic problem when it happens nearly every WIS draft. Just because it doesn't happen to you, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

What exactly have I "made up"?

And why exactly are you so hung up on the fact that 20 years ago there were no internationals in the draft? At one time there were virtually no early entries either and it was all seniors getting drafted, but how are either one of those scenarios relevant to a comparison of the WIS and NBA drafts today? I understand you're trying to say that back then there were not 7 guys taken off one team even when there were no internationals and those extra draft spots were presumably taken up by more EE's and a few more seniors...but that alone is too simplistic of an approach.

As I said above, in addition to the international issue, which you can deny is an issue but the reality is that it does require more players to be taken, you also have issues involving dispersion of talent in WIS being more concentrated among the top teams than it is in real life and you have what I think is the biggest issue of all...the fact that the draft is so big heavy that it involves weaker bigs, almost always bench players from better teams, being taken at the expense of guards who are probably better overall players.

If they fix this problem so that it's more of a 50/50 split then I think it would even things out and teams wouldn't be so wiped out of underclassmen because there are plenty of excellent guards out there that could be taken instead.

I can say it's not a systemic problem because I don't think having 5 guys drafted is in and of itself a problem. Where it becomes a problem is what I was talking about earlier...where it's mostly backup bigs being taken. If it's a 2/3 or 3/2 guard/big split, then so be it. 7 drafted is too many, but that has happened once that anyone is talking about. Given the landscape of WIS I don't think 5 is unreasonable if you are concerned about keeping things remotely competitive across the board.

9/18/2011 8:08 PM

bow2dacowz

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Posted by girt25 on 9/18/2011 7:32:00 PM (view original):
And there are certainly numerous non-drafted seniors in HD who are better than guys in the draft (both underclassmen and seniors who get drafted). I'd be surprised that anyone who really paid attention to the draft would disagree. It's fairly common.

That said, I think that is a separate issue from the main issue at play here.

I'll ask this of you too....how much of this is fixed by having closer to a 50/50 split of guards to bigs in the draft instead of the 20/80 it seems to be now?

More senior guards being drafted means fewer backup bigs leaving early.

I agree that there are talented players not getting drafted, so maybe I expressed that sentiment poorly...but I don't think it's a substantial amount when compared to players of a similar position that do get drafted...but it really stands out when you look across all positions.

9/18/2011 8:12 PM

doomey

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This is the "made up" world I'm talking about.You "don't think", that in itself is a subjective statement as is most of your arguement in regards to this issue. And by dismissing it as a problem at all, you then say it's not systemic because... you say so? And then you repeatedly just deny the reality that just because there are no internationals does NOT mean there are neccessarily going to be more EE's. They are uncorrellated. More players? Yes. More EE's? not neccessarily, not if they are not the best players. Add to that the fact that you think that lack of internationals means some teams should have 5 or more players drafted is not only uncorrelated, but not based in reality. It didn't happen in the many many years in which there were no or very few internationals. Or does that fact just not matter.

The mere fact that you think 5 players being drafted from mulitiple teams in any draft is not a departure from reality is telling enough.

So bizarre.

9/18/2011 9:33 PM

Trentonjoe

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Posted by girt25 on 9/18/2011 7:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 9/18/2011 2:53:00 PM (view original):
If it's me your talking about I didn't say that at all.

My premise is the best 60 guys should get drafted, I don't care how many are on the same team.

It seems to be, some people have an issue with how the "best" 60 are calculated.
joe, I think saying that "the best 60 players should get drafted" is incredibly myopic.

That's suggesting we should ignore player personality, team success, other items related to the game (i.e not losing 7 EE's from one team) and just general randomness.

Yeah, you're right.

To me it boils down who declares? and then who are the best 60?

The decision tree for declaring is foreign to me, is it out of whack? I don't know. I do think player personality should be a factor.

Then who are the best 60?

Again, how this is determined seems in debate? I personally don't care as long as it kinda makes sense.

To me the decision tree should look like:

1. What players are going to leave early?
2. Who are the best 60 players?

My point from the beginning (or what I was trying to communicate) is if your player is one of the best 60 players eligible to be drafted, he should be drafted.

I do think there should be some sort of device to measure if a player will leave early, as well.

9/18/2011 9:36 PM

bow2dacowz

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LOL Doomey because anything you have said is anything other than your opinion? Sorry, pointing out differences between an online game and what happens in real life doesn't count. It's apples and oranges and it's your opinion that they should mirror each other. That's it.

I'm sorry that you so desperately have your heart set on this game being real life. Sadly, it's never going to be.

Oh well. I guess you can either choose to deal with it, or you can choose to be butt hurt.

9/18/2011 9:40 PM

doomey

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bow, it matters if we are attempting to simulate a RL scenario, which is what the point of the game is... (in fact, it's right up there in the logo - SPORTS SIMULATION). I find it somewhat amusing that a discussion dealing with how to make the game better and more realistic devolves to the above. It's equally amusing that you use a RL situation like internationals to reinforce an arguement that you then say shouldn't be based in reality...

And yes, I have stated mostly facts, you have for the most part speculated in rebuttal. The only thing that is my opinion is that a change should be made based upon the facts myself and others have presented. I think you are the only one arguing those particulars. The rest of us are pretty much prioritizing what should be fixed and what is good for balance.

Joe, I tend to think it should be the other way around.

1: Who are the best 90 players. Then you have your general pool (how this is figured is another discussion. IMHO it should be cores and then OVR.)
2: What players from that pool are going to leave early.

9/18/2011 11:06 PM (edited)

bow2dacowz

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Just because it's not real life doesn't mean it shouldn't have elements of real life. It does have many elements of real life and that's why it works and is fun to play. However, it can't and won't ever have ALL the elements of real life...and the internationals situation is part of that, so I"m not really sure how that proves your point, especially since I brought up internationals in the context of being one of the differences between this game and real life

Elements of real life are not good enough for you. You want it to be an exact mimic of real life.

9/18/2011 11:28 PM

doomey

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I don't know if you are 12 or what, but this internationals thing tired. Internationals are relatively recent, so all you are doing is continually bringing up a non-issue. It has absolutely no bearing on the dispersement of EE's or overal recruits in HD. You brought it up as a rational for more EE's and more players being taken from one team, not to disprove any simularities between RL and WIS. The mere fact that you use hypotheticals to counter facts and feel that 822 rated jrs should be drafted as the seventh player from one team when there are stronger senior bigs that are not is enough to understand your logic.

I certainly hope you love every aspect of this game, because any complaint or change you may propose would be antithetical to your last post. And I hope to never see you type any corrolaries to RL basketball again, for this game and it's elements are enough and it should never change. Remember, it "works".

9/19/2011 12:08 AM (edited)

bow2dacowz

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smarty jones, i have said several times during this "discussion" that i think there needs to be changes made to this process, i just don't think every aspect of the game has to mimic reality. there is a big difference. you really only like to pay attention to things you can twist to make yourself sound better, don't you? very self righteous of you.

if you want the international issue to go away, then stop talking about it. my point and your point about internationals go hand in hand. they don't exist in this game which is one reason you can not expect this game to mimic real life. as a result the players have to come from somewhere. as i said before that doesnt mean that every player that makes up the difference is an EE, but it's fact that some are and it's more likely that they will come from the top teams.

lastly, since you're a real world guy and can't seem to separate this game from the real world....i am surprised you've never seen guys get drafted higher than a more skilled player at that point in their career based on potential and other intangibles. i don't know what growth potential that player still had, and i'm sure you'll say whatever suits your argument anyway, but some guys peak early, and some have higher ceilings. one that comes quickly to mind is marvin williams who didnt even start for UNC and then went 2nd overall. who are you to say why a team...a fake team at that....should be drafting a player for their fake roster? who cares if he gets drafted 7th or 50th, it doesn't matter.

BTW, if I was 12, I hope you'd feel pretty good about yourself for using your condescending tone to try and put me in my place lol. It's all good. I'm sure if we sat down over a beer we'd get along fine, even if you only like to see your own point of view.

9/19/2011 1:14 AM

doomey

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If you agree that changes need to be made then why on earth are you arguing with me and bringing up scenarios that aren't applicable to WIS? You keep saying it shouldn't mirror RL, but then keep bringing up RL examples when you feel they rationalizes your perspective then turn around and say I'M stuck in reality? I seriously wonder if you understand the process or NBA history at this point.

If you were 12 you might actually listen. Talk about saying whatever suits your arguement.

We get it, you think multiple teams should have 5-7 draftees because they are successful and we don't have internationals. Noted. Moving on.

9/19/2011 3:28 AM

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