How to attack a good FCP? Topic

wronoj
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Posted by ethan66 on 9/21/2011 10:39:00 AM (view original):
Wronoj, doesn't the right answer depend a great deal on one's personnel?  If I'm short on guys with high Stam, I will usually play slowdown.  But I've beaten some FB/FCP teams by also setting guards who have decent LP/high SPD to -2 and getting them inside to draw the foul.


sure. and that of your opponent. that was kinda my whole point-- it's interesting to me that 2 nearly opposite strategies can be effective at accomplishing the same major goal.

for whoever said they are so deep fouls don't matter (or something similar)-- trying to get fouled more can be about points as much as foul trouble...
9/21/2011 3:31 PM
narcotico
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These have probably been mentioned, but the two biggest weaknesses of the press IMO:

1)Stamina. Press teams tire faster than teams playing other defenses.

2)Fouls. Press teams tend to foul more than teams playing other defenses.

If you have the depth and personnel(ath/sp/stam should figure into this decision), go UPTEMPO. The press team will be more likely to tire before yours, is more likely to have foul problems, and your team is likely to get in the bonus early in the half.

Also, and this is just a data-free half-baked theory, your shorter possessions going uptempo may cut down on turnovers per possession(less time for the press team to create a turnover before a shot is taken). Anyone else seeing this, or is that just my imagination run amok?

9/21/2011 4:00 PM (edited)
bbunch
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This is what I do - but it does also depend on personnel.

I usually go uptempo against the press. The opposing team will often tire quick and foul quite a lot. A great penetrating PG with good BH and PAS is a press killer, especially if that PG has high SPD and can get fouled a lot going to the basket. If your team's strength is inside, go inside. I've fouled out many opponent's point guards just by sending my90+ SPD PG to the basket a lot for layups.

Also, If you have a star player that often encounters either double teams, or the oppenents best defender (if they use man to man), this is that star player's time to shine (as long as that star player has decent BH).



9/21/2011 6:25 PM
dacj501
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thx for the advice everyone - we lost anyway, but thanks
9/21/2011 7:39 PM
rednation58
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If you go uptempo against the press i think BH and passing are even more important because your guards with low BH and P will turn the ball over. I don't know if i had the right team for it or not but i got killed when I went uptempo against the press. Slowdown worked better for me. It at least stopped me from getting blown out. 
9/21/2011 10:42 PM
garger
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Posted by dacj501 on 9/21/2011 4:18:00 AM (view original):
isn't press kind of an always double the ball though?
run uptempo so he can't set up ball-traps
9/22/2011 4:10 AM
rednation58
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doesnt going uptempo against the press feed right into its strength? It's a defense that creates frenzy... even the HOOPS 101 page says that fastbreak offenses have trouble with press defense. I don't know how much in common fastbreak has with uptempo but it would seem similar by definition.
9/22/2011 4:21 PM
bbunch
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Posted by rednation58 on 9/22/2011 4:21:00 PM (view original):
doesnt going uptempo against the press feed right into its strength? It's a defense that creates frenzy... even the HOOPS 101 page says that fastbreak offenses have trouble with press defense. I don't know how much in common fastbreak has with uptempo but it would seem similar by definition.
more possessions = more potential fouls for a press team that will already commit many fouls.

I understand what you're saying - but winning the FT battle against a press team is huge.
9/22/2011 5:45 PM
dahsdebater
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I think a lot of this debate is overthinking the complexity of the engine.  I have seen very little evidence that the overall per-possession logic changes significantly based on the tempo of the offense.  There may be a FEW more backcourt turnovers in uptempo, but not a lot, and otherwise per-possession outcomes seem to be statistically identical regardless of tempo.  It's really just about how many possessions you want to have in the game.
9/22/2011 6:31 PM
isack24
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Posted by dahsdebater on 9/22/2011 6:31:00 PM (view original):
I think a lot of this debate is overthinking the complexity of the engine.  I have seen very little evidence that the overall per-possession logic changes significantly based on the tempo of the offense.  There may be a FEW more backcourt turnovers in uptempo, but not a lot, and otherwise per-possession outcomes seem to be statistically identical regardless of tempo.  It's really just about how many possessions you want to have in the game.
I don't think is right.  Going uptempo means looking for faster shots, which necessarily changes the per-possession logic.
9/22/2011 7:16 PM
rednation58
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Posted by isack24 on 9/22/2011 7:16:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 9/22/2011 6:31:00 PM (view original):
I think a lot of this debate is overthinking the complexity of the engine.  I have seen very little evidence that the overall per-possession logic changes significantly based on the tempo of the offense.  There may be a FEW more backcourt turnovers in uptempo, but not a lot, and otherwise per-possession outcomes seem to be statistically identical regardless of tempo.  It's really just about how many possessions you want to have in the game.
I don't think is right.  Going uptempo means looking for faster shots, which necessarily changes the per-possession logic.
Have you beaten FCP at a high rate using this philosophy? I think the engine is kind of complex as far as the choices we have in scheme and pace it has to mean something to the art of coaching. I would hope it does at least.
9/22/2011 7:35 PM
tianyi7886
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I'm with dahs for what it's worth.
9/22/2011 8:41 PM
jetwildcat
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Posted by dahsdebater on 9/22/2011 6:31:00 PM (view original):
I think a lot of this debate is overthinking the complexity of the engine.  I have seen very little evidence that the overall per-possession logic changes significantly based on the tempo of the offense.  There may be a FEW more backcourt turnovers in uptempo, but not a lot, and otherwise per-possession outcomes seem to be statistically identical regardless of tempo.  It's really just about how many possessions you want to have in the game.
i have seen the same thing...no reason to believe shooting % decreases in uptempo due to shot selection. if the % dips its usually due to lack of depth.

i like using uptempo to beat pressing teams because they fatigue twice as fast as normal
9/22/2011 8:49 PM
ike1024
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There's literally no way for you guys to back up what you are saying.  The only way to know would be to run millions of possessions with the exact same settings/ratings other than tempo.  
9/22/2011 9:13 PM
zhawks
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Posted by zhawks on 9/21/2011 12:41:00 PM (view original):
Don't over think it.
I'll repeat myself
9/22/2011 9:29 PM
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