ASHLAND

Guards ath 77 sp 89 ath 44 sp 84 ath 35 sp 83... here the majority of the guards on the roster have 80+ speed. 

I will show more teams later as I have to go but the first two teams I named have one 2 or more national titles and speed with guards particularly the 1 spot seems to be a major ingredient to success. My question to you would be as far as the top teams you listed, what did their other players look like? there are some top teams with average backcourts but their PF"S and C's are amazing. 

Posted by dacj501 on 9/27/2011 2:12:00 AM (view original):
I still believe ath influences more actions than any other ability. 

I don't disagree with this at all, but for a pg I still don't feel it is more important than spd.

Posted by rednation58 on 9/27/2011 7:40:00 AM (view original):
I will show more teams later as I have to go but the first two teams I named have one 2 or more national titles and speed with guards particularly the 1 spot seems to be a major ingredient to success. My question to you would be as far as the top teams you listed, what did their other players look like? there are some top teams with average backcourts but their PF"S and C's are amazing. 

It's easier to get a 50ath/90spd PG than to get a 90ath/50spd pg. It doesn't mean that the 1st player is better. 

I have never seen a 90 ATH pg at the D2 level so i would have to agree in theory, but I have even noticed that when my team plays an opponent with a 1 or 2 with 80 plus speed, my guys tend to foul more. I have to assume it has to do with the fact they can't keep up since the speed stat also includes quickness which in my opinion are two very different things. It's documented in WIS that speed has a lot to do with guys getting off good shots. speed, IQ, and PER all come into play when creating a sharpshooter.  If i have a guy with 90 speed and 85 perimeter, he will have a higher FG % than another guard with 90 per and 60 speed. Depending on the first guys PER i think he is the better player. Maybe the 90 ATH and 50 speed can score in the paint but on defensive he would definitely get exploited by the faster guard.

Posted by rednation58 on 9/27/2011 11:45:00 AM (view original):
I have never seen a 90 ATH pg at the D2 level so i would have to agree in theory, but I have even noticed that when my team plays an opponent with a 1 or 2 with 80 plus speed, my guys tend to foul more. I have to assume it has to do with the fact they can't keep up since the speed stat also includes quickness which in my opinion are two very different things. It's documented in WIS that speed has a lot to do with guys getting off good shots. speed, IQ, and PER all come into play when creating a sharpshooter.  If i have a guy with 90 speed and 85 perimeter, he will have a higher FG % than another guard with 90 per and 60 speed. Depending on the first guys PER i think he is the better player. Maybe the 90 ATH and 50 speed can score in the paint but on defensive he would definitely get exploited by the faster guard.

I had a 90ath/71spd SG in D3. He was a beast  on both ends of the floor. He didn't really get exploited by faster guards because whoever was matched up against him usually fouls out in 15min. 

http://whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerHistory/Default.aspx?pid=1810110

Here is a guy who was 98/51:

http://whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerHistory/Default.aspx?pid=1752716

And I don't know why you think that a huge ath edge wouldn't be able to compensate for a speed deficiency. 

I'm also not sure about spd is more effective than per/lp on the offensive end. I'm in the camp that 95-100 per/lp players generally cannot be defended.

I think that because on defense how will a slow athletic guy keep up with a fast guy especially when the team is running uptempo and especially when quickness is included in the speed rating. And I'm sure you didn't recruit that guy at 90 Ath and 71 Sp.

And a guy like that in D3 would thrive... honestly depending on his other offensive ratings I would think he would average more points than that at the D3 level.

Posted by rednation58 on 9/27/2011 12:01:00 PM (view original):
I think that because on defense how will a slow athletic guy keep up with a fast guy especially when the team is running uptempo and especially when quickness is included in the speed rating. And I'm sure you didn't recruit that guy at 90 Ath and 71 Sp.

Uptempo simply creates more possessions. It doesn't mean faster guys will score better. 90ath/71 spd player was recruited at around 70/50. The 98/51 guy was recruited at 90/41. 

Quickness is included in speed rating? How do you know that there is a lateral quickness/agility component to the speed rating and is part of this game. If we are going to throw in whatever seems logical, ath could also mean agility, vertical leap, and physical strength, which are all the things you look for in a great basketball player. 

Posted by rednation58 on 9/27/2011 12:02:00 PM (view original):
And a guy like that in D3 would thrive... honestly depending on his other offensive ratings I would think he would average more points than that at the D3 level.

17ppg over 4 year span, avg 28ppg for his JR and SR year...how much more do you want him to score? Not to mention he was playing with another SG with 84/72 ath/spd. 

strength is included in ATH... I can't site the post but seble did tell someone strength is lumped in with ATH which is kind of farfetched to me because strength should be a stand alone stat in my opinion. and the guy i was looking at avg 13 pts a game and again it's D3 which with an A+ prestige you were probably heads and shoulders above the rest anyway in recruiting.

Posted by rednation58 on 9/27/2011 12:18:00 PM (view original):
strength is included in ATH... I can't site the post but seble did tell someone strength is lumped in with ATH which is kind of farfetched to me because strength should be a stand alone stat in my opinion. and the guy i was looking at avg 13 pts a game and again it's D3 which with an A+ prestige you were probably heads and shoulders above the rest anyway in recruiting.

You are really overthinking this. There is no such thing as strength nor is there such a thing as quickness/agility; there are athleticism and speed. Seble probably said strength is part of athleticism and agility/quickness is part of speed so people wouldn't ask for things like more realism and more attributes.

Ath and Spd both affect offensive efficiency and defensive effectiveness. Conventional wisdom tells us that guards should be quick, bigs should be strong/athletic. This doesn't mean that 90/50 guards cannot effectively defend 50/90 guards.

I just looked at the preseason all american point guards for D2 and all of them from 1st team to 3rd team are 80+ speed. It leads me to think that speed is very important with guards... especially at the 1 spot.