Posted by rednation58 on 9/27/2011 12:24:00 PM (view original):
I just looked at the preseason all american point guards for D2 and all of them from 1st team to 3rd team are 80+ speed. It leads me to think that speed is very important with guards... especially at the 1 spot.

Again, the recruit generation creates PG with higher spd than ath. Guards with 85 ath/ 55 speed will generally be generated as SG or SF. Since only PG qualify for awards at the PG slot, of course you will see that the preseason all american PG all have higher speed than athleticism. 

I'm not sure if this is still true, but aejones (one of the top D3/D2 coaches) have won numerous titles with a team that is heavily skewed towards ath. I remember his D2 team would average 72 ath / 57 spd. His D3 team would be around 63/52 ath/spd. 

Ok so when I have a PG with high ATH and moderate speed why wouldnt he be a defensive liabilty? and uptempo means more possessions because the team is playing faster... that's why you take more of a stamina hit when you run uptempo. So I'm inclined to believe that a faster guard has the advantage. If uptempo is only about the actual possessions increase then speed isn't a factor at all. It wouldn't be a factor at any tempo that is used if the only basis is possessions. And Ok I see your point about the awards but at the same time these guys arent newly recruited... they are seasoned guys so a pg with say sub 70 speed and 90 + ath could qualify as an All American in a pg slot. As a matter of fact the 3rd team guy has stats similar to these but the first two are both 80+ speed with low or moderate ATH.

Posted by tianyi7886 on 9/27/2011 12:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by rednation58 on 9/27/2011 12:24:00 PM (view original):
I just looked at the preseason all american point guards for D2 and all of them from 1st team to 3rd team are 80+ speed. It leads me to think that speed is very important with guards... especially at the 1 spot.

Again, the recruit generation creates PG with higher spd than ath. Guards with 85 ath/ 55 speed will generally be generated as SG or SF. Since only PG qualify for awards at the PG slot, of course you will see that the preseason all american PG all have higher speed than athleticism. 

I'm not sure if this is still true, but aejones (one of the top D3/D2 coaches) have won numerous titles with a team that is heavily skewed towards ath. I remember his D2 team would average 72 ath / 57 spd. His D3 team would be around 63/52 ath/spd. 

HIs whole team or just his guards?

At DIII, my goal is for my guards to be ATH + SPD > 120. More is better, of course. I have had successful 40/80, 60/60, and 70/50 ATH/SPD guys.

Posted by rednation58 on 9/27/2011 12:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 9/27/2011 12:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by rednation58 on 9/27/2011 12:24:00 PM (view original):
I just looked at the preseason all american point guards for D2 and all of them from 1st team to 3rd team are 80+ speed. It leads me to think that speed is very important with guards... especially at the 1 spot.

Again, the recruit generation creates PG with higher spd than ath. Guards with 85 ath/ 55 speed will generally be generated as SG or SF. Since only PG qualify for awards at the PG slot, of course you will see that the preseason all american PG all have higher speed than athleticism. 

I'm not sure if this is still true, but aejones (one of the top D3/D2 coaches) have won numerous titles with a team that is heavily skewed towards ath. I remember his D2 team would average 72 ath / 57 spd. His D3 team would be around 63/52 ath/spd. 

HIs whole team or just his guards?

Those are team average. Personally for my teams, I like my guards to be more ath heavy. For me, best way to win games is to have my opponents starters foul out and that is easier to achieve with high ath players set to -2. 

tiany - Personally for my teams, I like my OPPONENTS' guards to be more SPD heavy. consistent with what you said, the more ath the scorer - @ any position - the harder it is for a lower ath defender to defend, regardless of the spd. this opens up shots from the outside and increases fouls when a guard drives or a big man posts.

Posted by jtt8355 on 9/27/2011 1:46:00 PM (view original):
tiany - Personally for my teams, I like my OPPONENTS' guards to be more SPD heavy. consistent with what you said, the more ath the scorer - @ any position - the harder it is for a lower ath defender to defend, regardless of the spd. this opens up shots from the outside and increases fouls when a guard drives or a big man posts.

in theory I would disagree with this, but experience makes me believe... so what is the advantage of 99 spd guards?? anything? Do they get open looks from outside better? If so, are they only any good with high per?

Posted by tianyi7886 on 9/27/2011 11:51:00 AM (view original):
Here is a guy who was 98/51:

http://whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerHistory/Default.aspx?pid=1752716

When I first looked at this guy's profile, it didn't jump off the page - until I saw his 800 FTA in just 2500 career mins. Good grief. I'm starting to be convinced that I've been seriously underrating ATH for my guards.

That is impressive!!! But why play him so little lol?? Doesnt make any sense if ATH is so dominant.

Posted by reddyred on 9/27/2011 6:04:00 PM (view original):
That is impressive!!! But why play him so little lol?? Doesnt make any sense if ATH is so dominant.

FCP system and his stamina never got past 76. Here are his full ratings:

Name	Yr.	Pos.	A	SPD	REB	DE	BLK	LP	PE	BH	P	WE	ST	DU	FT	TOT
Albert Leroux	Sr.	PG	98	59	4	97	5	42	27	52	25	84	76	100	B+	669

So actually 98/59. 

Posted by dacj501 on 9/27/2011 2:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jtt8355 on 9/27/2011 1:46:00 PM (view original):
tiany - Personally for my teams, I like my OPPONENTS' guards to be more SPD heavy. consistent with what you said, the more ath the scorer - @ any position - the harder it is for a lower ath defender to defend, regardless of the spd. this opens up shots from the outside and increases fouls when a guard drives or a big man posts.

in theory I would disagree with this, but experience makes me believe... so what is the advantage of 99 spd guards?? anything? Do they get open looks from outside better? If so, are they only any good with high per?

i don't use (or try my hardest not to use) low ath guards at the 2. but i have no issue using a guard with good pass / bh and high spd at the 1 even if his ath is low. i might eb wrong but i don't think ath has too much of an affect on assists. check out this d-iii player as an example: http://whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=0&pid=1837214 

Ast is mainly a result of passing and the scoring ability of your players. You could have poor speed pg with 100 passing and still have a good ast/game. 

I view ath and speed as two parts of a scoring formula, maybe something like F(x) = ath (speed + per + lp + bh) + (pass rating on other players). You could increase your players offensive efficiency by increasing any of those 4 factors. People tend to focus on ath/spd most because they are also part of the defensive formula. 

Posted by jtt8355 on 9/27/2011 6:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dacj501 on 9/27/2011 2:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jtt8355 on 9/27/2011 1:46:00 PM (view original):
tiany - Personally for my teams, I like my OPPONENTS' guards to be more SPD heavy. consistent with what you said, the more ath the scorer - @ any position - the harder it is for a lower ath defender to defend, regardless of the spd. this opens up shots from the outside and increases fouls when a guard drives or a big man posts.

in theory I would disagree with this, but experience makes me believe... so what is the advantage of 99 spd guards?? anything? Do they get open looks from outside better? If so, are they only any good with high per?

i don't use (or try my hardest not to use) low ath guards at the 2. but i have no issue using a guard with good pass / bh and high spd at the 1 even if his ath is low. i might eb wrong but i don't think ath has too much of an affect on assists. check out this d-iii player as an example: http://whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=0&pid=1837214 

It doesnt seem that way because you're not playing good competition.  in your 2 losses, he's played terribly. In the 3 games he's played in which he had more than 6 assists, the RPIs of the teams you played were all in the 150's.

You're not playing a good enough schedule, and your view of your player is skewed because of it. Happens all the time, and I don't blame you at all, and I don't want to sound like a dick, because I really mean nothing by it personally. When you play better teams, you will see that his production will drop considerably. Guys like that shred bad teams and then can't play as well (on average, of course it's not always true) against good teams. The low ath is much less of a factor versus simmy C- teams. That's why a guy can have good stats for a SEASON, but when the time comes to make noise in the tournament, they fall short. One of the many reasons why a tough non conference is so important for D3 and D2.

I really like good ATH.  I cant really answer the questions as posed - just dont know with confidence.  BUT, I do think that in recruiting one can often get a guard with 20 points better ATH at the expense of just say 5-10 points of SPD.  So long as the SPD is within the minimally acceptable range (defined for your division, school, prestige), I think that is a pretty good tradeoff.  I believe that happens because some coaches focus too single mindedly on SPD.

Posted by metsmax on 9/27/2011 6:41:00 PM (view original):
I really like good ATH.  I cant really answer the questions as posed - just dont know with confidence.  BUT, I do think that in recruiting one can often get a guard with 20 points better ATH at the expense of just say 5-10 points of SPD.  So long as the SPD is within the minimally acceptable range (defined for your division, school, prestige), I think that is a pretty good tradeoff.  I believe that happens because some coaches focus too single mindedly on SPD.

I think this is true. I tend to avoid battles so most guards with 90+ spd potential don't really fall to me. Instead, I take those 80-90 ath guards, and these guards actually rank higher in my spread sheet because they can generally reach 140-160 total in ath/spd while the 90 spd guard generally peak around 140 (for D3).