Prestige Drop (D2) Topic

Not necessarily true on the whole duke theory. Look at Indiana, they had multiple bad seasons and still managed to pull in top level recruits like that Zeller kid. 
2/1/2012 1:19 PM
Posted by alblack56 on 2/1/2012 11:30:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tianyi7886 on 1/31/2012 10:21:00 PM (view original):
This is standard drop. You miss both NT and PI, you lose a full letter.
If that's corrrect, then the most recent season is stressed WAY too much. To make it an automatic full letter drop, regardless of the previous seasons?  In Naismith, Texas-Dallas has won  4 of the last 5 NTs.  If they miss post-season, they'll drop to B+???????
yeah, i think so.

igana's approach seems about accurate but there definitely seem to be some other logic pieces built in. once seems to be that you can't drop more than a letter grade. so pretty much any time a high prestige school does badly (not neccessarily even just missing the NT/PIT, but bad record, 150 rpi, or whatever), they lose a whole grade.
2/1/2012 1:29 PM
Posted by alblack56 on 2/1/2012 11:30:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tianyi7886 on 1/31/2012 10:21:00 PM (view original):
This is standard drop. You miss both NT and PI, you lose a full letter.
If that's corrrect, then the most recent season is stressed WAY too much. To make it an automatic full letter drop, regardless of the previous seasons?  In Naismith, Texas-Dallas has won  4 of the last 5 NTs.  If they miss post-season, they'll drop to B+???????
hey alblack - is that a d3 school? or d2? 4 out of 5 is getting up there, in competition for greatest run of all time. whose the coach?
2/1/2012 1:31 PM
Posted by coach_billyg on 2/1/2012 1:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by alblack56 on 2/1/2012 11:30:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tianyi7886 on 1/31/2012 10:21:00 PM (view original):
This is standard drop. You miss both NT and PI, you lose a full letter.
If that's corrrect, then the most recent season is stressed WAY too much. To make it an automatic full letter drop, regardless of the previous seasons?  In Naismith, Texas-Dallas has won  4 of the last 5 NTs.  If they miss post-season, they'll drop to B+???????
hey alblack - is that a d3 school? or d2? 4 out of 5 is getting up there, in competition for greatest run of all time. whose the coach?
am I missing something? Texas Dallas has never won the NC in Naismith D3. 
2/1/2012 2:14 PM

I haven't been following any of the whatif stuff that closely.  Just surprised.  Definately a bad way to do it.  A national title, with the same coach being there would make you an A+ prestige in real life, if we do want to talk real life.  O well, not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. I missed recruiting the past year so you get what you deserve I guess.

2/1/2012 2:27 PM
Posted by majresorter on 2/1/2012 2:27:00 PM (view original):

I haven't been following any of the whatif stuff that closely.  Just surprised.  Definately a bad way to do it.  A national title, with the same coach being there would make you an A+ prestige in real life, if we do want to talk real life.  O well, not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. I missed recruiting the past year so you get what you deserve I guess.

I disagree. If this is D1, you would be right, but you are talking D3 here. D3 teams fluctuate up and down pretty regularly. No way would you miss the NT (assuming there is a D3 NT) and PI and still remain as A+. Can you even name who won the D3 NC this year, or the year before, without looking it up?
2/1/2012 5:51 PM
Posted by tianyi7886 on 2/1/2012 5:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by majresorter on 2/1/2012 2:27:00 PM (view original):

I haven't been following any of the whatif stuff that closely.  Just surprised.  Definately a bad way to do it.  A national title, with the same coach being there would make you an A+ prestige in real life, if we do want to talk real life.  O well, not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. I missed recruiting the past year so you get what you deserve I guess.

I disagree. If this is D1, you would be right, but you are talking D3 here. D3 teams fluctuate up and down pretty regularly. No way would you miss the NT (assuming there is a D3 NT) and PI and still remain as A+. Can you even name who won the D3 NC this year, or the year before, without looking it up?
Being heavily involved in collegiate basketball in the state of Wisconsin might give me particular insight into this, and it might cloud my judgement because this might not be typical, but...

Stevens Point and Plattville from Wisconsin are two of the best D3 schools in the country. They do have a national tournament.  Those two will attract elite talent for five-ten more years even if they never made the tournament.  So real world speaking, you win a national title, you are attracting top talent for a long long time.  Major assumption of course is that you keep the same coach.  Jack Bennet, Bob Semling, Dick Bennet, and Bo Ryan are four of the most famous basketball coaches in Wisconsin.  When those four were at their respective schools, no one was recruiting better, even after their down years. 

Again, not a big deal, if we wanted to compare realism to whatif, we could be here all day complaining. But if you do win or even contend for a national title at a D2/D3 you do receive relative prestige at that level in recruiting for years to come...
2/1/2012 7:09 PM
What recruiting are you talking about here? There are no athletic scholarships in D3 and coaches are pretty limited in their "tips."

I went to Williams College, which is a D3 basketball powerhouse. Without any athletic scholarships at this level, your level of success can vary quite a bit from year to year. Now throw in a couple of down seasons and it's not hard to imagine a player who wanted to seriously play ball would choose MIT, Amerherst, or Middlebury over Williams. 

And are you really telling me that if UW Stevens Point goes 10-17 the following two seasons while UW Plattville wins 2 NCs, the top tier Wisconsin recruits will continue to choose Stevens Point!?!? It's not like you dropped from A+ to C, you dropped from A- to B-. That's essentially dropping from 30ish to 55-60ish.

And the funny thing, you are arguing that your team should remain at A+ because it won the NC a couple of seasons ago. There are already way too many A+ teams in this game. 


2/1/2012 7:52 PM (edited)
Posted by tianyi7886 on 2/1/2012 5:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by majresorter on 2/1/2012 2:27:00 PM (view original):

I haven't been following any of the whatif stuff that closely.  Just surprised.  Definately a bad way to do it.  A national title, with the same coach being there would make you an A+ prestige in real life, if we do want to talk real life.  O well, not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. I missed recruiting the past year so you get what you deserve I guess.

I disagree. If this is D1, you would be right, but you are talking D3 here. D3 teams fluctuate up and down pretty regularly. No way would you miss the NT (assuming there is a D3 NT) and PI and still remain as A+. Can you even name who won the D3 NC this year, or the year before, without looking it up?
That's just not really true. I'm not even sure what you're basing that on.

The fact that you can't name the D3 champ is a reflection of the fact that you don't follow D3 ball, not a reflection of the fact that they're not an absolute big dog when it comes to signing high-level D3 talent.

There are absolutely big-time D2 and D3 programs that people recognize as prime places to play ball compared their brethren. And those schools absolutely do not lose that status if they have one lesser season.
2/1/2012 9:07 PM
Posted by girt25 on 2/1/2012 9:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tianyi7886 on 2/1/2012 5:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by majresorter on 2/1/2012 2:27:00 PM (view original):

I haven't been following any of the whatif stuff that closely.  Just surprised.  Definately a bad way to do it.  A national title, with the same coach being there would make you an A+ prestige in real life, if we do want to talk real life.  O well, not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. I missed recruiting the past year so you get what you deserve I guess.

I disagree. If this is D1, you would be right, but you are talking D3 here. D3 teams fluctuate up and down pretty regularly. No way would you miss the NT (assuming there is a D3 NT) and PI and still remain as A+. Can you even name who won the D3 NC this year, or the year before, without looking it up?
That's just not really true. I'm not even sure what you're basing that on.

The fact that you can't name the D3 champ is a reflection of the fact that you don't follow D3 ball, not a reflection of the fact that they're not an absolute big dog when it comes to signing high-level D3 talent.

There are absolutely big-time D2 and D3 programs that people recognize as prime places to play ball compared their brethren. And those schools absolutely do not lose that status if they have one lesser season.
I'm basing it on the fact that I went to a D3 powerhouse and followed D3 basketball. You are really gonna argue that D3 prestige carries the same value as D1 prestige? And is A+ drop to B+ drop (the alblack case) really that significant? There are generally 14-18 A+ teams in D3, with the B+ team being about 30-38th in terms of prestige. Just by a pure ranking by ranking basis, the team went from top 15 to top 30 or top 35, that's not that huge of a drop either. You are still well within the top 10% of teams in the nation.

And I agree, there are indeed D3 powerhouses in every sport. Mary-Hardin Baylor is beastly in football, while schools like Williams, Amherst, Middlebury, and some of the Wisconsin schools are the premier teams in D3 basketball. But what happens when one of these teams do poorly for 2 to 3 consecutive seasons (which is what happened to maj's team after the NC)? Do they still attract the same level of recruits as the other teams which have maintained the same level of excellence?

Or making it more concrete, say you are a northeast HS player 2 years from now, who's almost good enough to play D2 ball, and you get an offer from Williams, Amherst, and Middlebury. As of current day, Williams and Middlebury are better than Amherst in basketball and "more prestigious." Now let's assume in the next 2 seasons, Amherst wins NESCACs and Little 3 championships, and wins NC for both years, while Williams miss the tourney and goes sub-500 in NESCAC play. You get offer from these 3 schools, which one would you choose? You would choose Amherst because of it's tremendous performance in the past 2 seasons, even though Williams has been more traditionally more prestigious.
2/1/2012 9:47 PM (edited)
Posted by tianyi7886 on 2/1/2012 2:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by coach_billyg on 2/1/2012 1:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by alblack56 on 2/1/2012 11:30:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tianyi7886 on 1/31/2012 10:21:00 PM (view original):
This is standard drop. You miss both NT and PI, you lose a full letter.
If that's corrrect, then the most recent season is stressed WAY too much. To make it an automatic full letter drop, regardless of the previous seasons?  In Naismith, Texas-Dallas has won  4 of the last 5 NTs.  If they miss post-season, they'll drop to B+???????
hey alblack - is that a d3 school? or d2? 4 out of 5 is getting up there, in competition for greatest run of all time. whose the coach?
am I missing something? Texas Dallas has never won the NC in Naismith D3. 
I should have said Iba, not Naismith. The Texas-Dallas coach is bunkerbuster
2/2/2012 4:27 AM
I don't think we can compare RL DIII prestige to WIS prestige.  In  RL prestige is very local, rarely national in scope unless you're talking Mt Union or Wisc-Whitewater in football.   But, in WIS, every active coach, nationwide, knows the prestigous programs and coaches.
2/2/2012 4:30 AM
tianyi, I didn't say "You are really gonna argue that D3 prestige carries the same value as D1 prestige?" I don't think anyone has. They haven't said prestige needs to mirror DI exactly, only that now it's too much of a departure because the most recent season clearly carries too much weight. (And as an aside, seble knows this and when they get around to tweaking prestige it will be fixed/changed in some way, so it's not really so much a debate as it is fact.)
2/2/2012 7:32 AM
But you do think WIS prestige doesn't mirror RL prestige. 

In real life, D3 prestige is practically non-existent. Things like academic strength, financial aid/scholarship money (academically based, of course), and test scores far trumps athletics when someone makes a decision of where to go. Athletic strength/prestige is a very minor factor, and it should fluctuate quite a bit based on recent success. 
2/2/2012 10:29 AM

You can't compare RL prestige to WIS prestige. Read my last post again

2/2/2012 12:16 PM
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