Well, as was already pointed out, the biggest thing with Coach K is that Bobby Knight put his stamp of approval on him. He doesn't get the job otherwise, so that really invalidates the example. (Also interesting that he had to go back 30+ years for the attempted example.)

duke, again, you're a good coach. But the bottom line is that you've only been in DI for four seasons and you really haven't done anything impressive while there.

the correct way to think about Coach K's career path is to regard it as exceptional - because he is a paradigm of exceptional - right?

his career path is not the standard model - using his path as an illustration of how things should usually work is truly obviously misguided

Well I just had a long post get lost by the program, but the point was, there are dozens of Big 6 coaches who had very little or no NT sucecss before they got the job. Just do a little research.  Of course, don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

Well I just had a long post get lost by the program, but the point was, there are dozens of Big 6 coaches who had very little or no NT sucecss before they got the job. Just do a little research.  Of course, don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument.
The coach K argument was made because it was presumed that picking the best coach and showing his lack of prior success would show that it is not needed for a hire, but I guess that point was lost.

Cincinnati - Mark Cronin
Providence - Ed Cooley
Va Tech (might be relevant you know) -  Seth Greenberg
Villanove - Jay Wright
Colorado - Jeff Bzedlik
Clemson - Brad Brownell

I could do this all day.  None of these coaches had much if any success before the Big 6 job as far as NT wins.

I don't know much if anything, but from reading posts I believe the problem lies more in long-standing coaches being able to retain their positions regardless of their success.  I have learned comparing anything rl to this game is dangerous and ends in frustration.  I have come to think of it more as a math simulation with a few random variables and that keeps it fun for me.   Whereas in real life, if a coach had many seasons in a row where expectations were not met, he would be on his way, even if he had experienced past success.  In this game, WIS can't get rid of oldtimers as that is there main base of business.  If you look through the big 6, you will see plenty of examples of guys who would have been fired (or encouraged to leave) long ago.  LIke any fantasy game, those that have been there the longest are often shown favoritism.  In a perfect world, either WIS would force or players would choose to be downgraded if they don't meet expectations for many years.  Don't want to point out anyone, but there are plenty of examples at the top tier schools.  My opinion (although not worth much) is that if that kind of system existed, there would be not only more people who would stick out the game but you would also get better people in many top tier programs who would challenge those who are always near the top.  Maybe up to us players ourselves to regulate this if someone could come up with some kind of formula or system. 

With the lone exception of Mick Cronin, every one of those coaches had at least 5 seasons of D1 head coaching experience before being hired at a Big 6 school. (Seth Greenberg had 13 seasons of D1 HC experience before getting the Va Tech job.)

I think that speaks to the point of longevity being a critical factor in receiving a Big 6 job.

Colorado - Jeff Bzedlik

Um, the NBA isn't a big time program?

I'm confused by your post duke. All of those coaches have much more extensive resume than you do, not to mention years of assistant coaching experience.

Brownell coached UNC Wilmington and Wright State, so 2 job switches and 8 seasons, before he got to Clemson. 
Jay Wright coached Hofstra to numerous NT appearances

Seth Greenberg is relevant?!? He coached D1 for like 15 years before the VA tech job. 

Posted by tianyi7886 on 3/5/2012 10:58:00 PM (view original):
I'm confused by your post duke. All of those coaches have much more extensive resume than you do, not to mention years of assistant coaching experience.

Brownell coached UNC Wilmington and Wright State, so 2 job switches and 8 seasons, before he got to Clemson. 
Jay Wright coached Hofstra to numerous NT appearances

Seth Greenberg is relevant?!? He coached D1 for like 15 years before the VA tech job. 

Have you even bothered to check my resume?  I also coached at Morris Brown, a D1 school.   I'm sure you'll make up another reason in reason.  As I said, there are dozens more examples of coaches at D1 schools who had zero NT success before getting the Big 6 job.  But, really, real life is irrelevant to whether the recruiting logic here picks the best coaches, it doesn't.

It's ok, though.  You guys belittled Skunk before too when he made comments about D1 recruiting.  He is now the hero of this thread because people need to put me down.  He is rightfully considered a great coach,  one of the best and a good guy too.  However, when you and others acted like he was out of his mind for thinking he knew how to coach or recruit Big 6 since he wasn't there.  Some Big 6 coaches (not most, just the loudest), think they are some gift to WIS and no one else knows what they are doing.  The recruiting engine and game engine is the same folks.  If you know how to win at D3, you know how to win at D2, and you know how to win at D1.  One more season or 1 more campus, won't make me any better.  I learned the game at D3 as did many fine coaches.  Everything is basically the same, same formulas, same engines, just more money. There are recruiting battles in D3, especially Socal and Heartland Knight and USA South Phelan.   Skunk, myself, and many others recruited nationally in D3 which is no small feat with the small cash there.  I have been in recruiting battles with the ACC and other Big 6 at JMU, won some expensive battles and lost some, as I would at an ACC school.  These qualifications the engine has and that some coaches feel are right are arbitrary and don't actually prove any knowledge of the game, they are just designed to protect the entrenched.  

This thread is too long. I am not going to convince since if you, and the inverse is the same. I'm bowing out

Posted by dukenilnil on 3/5/2012 11:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 3/5/2012 10:58:00 PM (view original):
I'm confused by your post duke. All of those coaches have much more extensive resume than you do, not to mention years of assistant coaching experience.

Brownell coached UNC Wilmington and Wright State, so 2 job switches and 8 seasons, before he got to Clemson. 
Jay Wright coached Hofstra to numerous NT appearances

Seth Greenberg is relevant?!? He coached D1 for like 15 years before the VA tech job. 

Have you even bothered to check my resume?  I also coached at Morris Brown, a D1 school.   I'm sure you'll make up another reason in reason.  As I said, there are dozens more examples of coaches at D1 schools who had zero NT success before getting the Big 6 job.  But, really, real life is irrelevant to whether the recruiting logic here picks the best coaches, it doesn't.

It's ok, though.  You guys belittled Skunk before too when he made comments about D1 recruiting.  He is now the hero of this thread because people need to put me down.  He is rightfully considered a great coach,  one of the best and a good guy too.  However, when you and others acted like he was out of his mind for thinking he knew how to coach or recruit Big 6 since he wasn't there.  Some Big 6 coaches (not most, just the loudest), think they are some gift to WIS and no one else knows what they are doing.  The recruiting engine and game engine is the same folks.  If you know how to win at D3, you know how to win at D2, and you know how to win at D1.  One more season or 1 more campus, won't make me any better.  I learned the game at D3 as did many fine coaches.  Everything is basically the same, same formulas, same engines, just more money. There are recruiting battles in D3, especially Socal and Heartland Knight and USA South Phelan.   Skunk, myself, and many others recruited nationally in D3 which is no small feat with the small cash there.  I have been in recruiting battles with the ACC and other Big 6 at JMU, won some expensive battles and lost some, as I would at an ACC school.  These qualifications the engine has and that some coaches feel are right are arbitrary and don't actually prove any knowledge of the game, they are just designed to protect the entrenched.  

You didn't coach at Morris Brown in Knight.

I think the point people are trying to make is that you a longer D1 resume in ONE world before being qualified for a Big 6 job. And that holds true to real life...

Posted by pepwaves on 3/5/2012 11:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dukenilnil on 3/5/2012 11:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 3/5/2012 10:58:00 PM (view original):
I'm confused by your post duke. All of those coaches have much more extensive resume than you do, not to mention years of assistant coaching experience.

Brownell coached UNC Wilmington and Wright State, so 2 job switches and 8 seasons, before he got to Clemson. 
Jay Wright coached Hofstra to numerous NT appearances

Seth Greenberg is relevant?!? He coached D1 for like 15 years before the VA tech job. 

Have you even bothered to check my resume?  I also coached at Morris Brown, a D1 school.   I'm sure you'll make up another reason in reason.  As I said, there are dozens more examples of coaches at D1 schools who had zero NT success before getting the Big 6 job.  But, really, real life is irrelevant to whether the recruiting logic here picks the best coaches, it doesn't.

It's ok, though.  You guys belittled Skunk before too when he made comments about D1 recruiting.  He is now the hero of this thread because people need to put me down.  He is rightfully considered a great coach,  one of the best and a good guy too.  However, when you and others acted like he was out of his mind for thinking he knew how to coach or recruit Big 6 since he wasn't there.  Some Big 6 coaches (not most, just the loudest), think they are some gift to WIS and no one else knows what they are doing.  The recruiting engine and game engine is the same folks.  If you know how to win at D3, you know how to win at D2, and you know how to win at D1.  One more season or 1 more campus, won't make me any better.  I learned the game at D3 as did many fine coaches.  Everything is basically the same, same formulas, same engines, just more money. There are recruiting battles in D3, especially Socal and Heartland Knight and USA South Phelan.   Skunk, myself, and many others recruited nationally in D3 which is no small feat with the small cash there.  I have been in recruiting battles with the ACC and other Big 6 at JMU, won some expensive battles and lost some, as I would at an ACC school.  These qualifications the engine has and that some coaches feel are right are arbitrary and don't actually prove any knowledge of the game, they are just designed to protect the entrenched.  

You didn't coach at Morris Brown in Knight.

I think the point people are trying to make is that you a longer D1 resume in ONE world before being qualified for a Big 6 job. And that holds true to real life...

Yes he did. Go back a few pages on his resume, season 30ish range.

Jobs process looks at your most recent 10 windows, so your Morris Brown experience doesn't matter.

it would be interesting to know how many of those kids on the two DIII title teams were recruited by dukelil

dukenilnil:  "If you know how to win at D3, you know how to win at D2, and you know how to win at D1".

This statement is totally and completely wrong and right there shows you don't really yet know what you're talking about when it comes to DI. The fact is that DI recruiting is a very different animal than D2/D3.

But the bottom line is that you have really done anything at DI yet to deserve a BCS gig. Sorry.

(And I would say that you and skunk are either one person, or perhaps are simply friends outside of HD. I'd bet on one of the two.)