Is this collusion? Seble kind of answer Topic

m4284850
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So I want a player but it looks like he'll be gobbled up but I think he's a backup for them.  Would it be collusion if I asked the coach if he was keeping the guy as a backup through sitemail?
3/29/2012 7:22 PM
dacj501
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only if he answered

(I don't think it is appropriate)

3/29/2012 7:23 PM
angmar
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Posted by dacj501 on 3/29/2012 7:24:00 PM (view original):
only if he answered

(I don't think it is appropriate)

Agreed, I don't think it's appropriate either.
3/29/2012 7:28 PM
willowcards2
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i dont think so. if he answers you then it is fair game
3/29/2012 9:05 PM
dmurphy104
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Yes it's collusion. You are trying to get information that you shouldnt have. You cant contact another coach and ask about recruits.
3/29/2012 9:29 PM
emy1013
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Posted by willowcards2 on 3/29/2012 9:05:00 PM (view original):
i dont think so. if he answers you then it is fair game
Just wondering your rationale behind thinking that this is fair game.  He would be getting info that's not available to other coaches.  Plus, depending upon his answer, it would determine his course of action in recruiting said player.  For example, if he was told that the player wasn't going to be signed, he could spend more money to try to pull him down.  Or, if he was told that the player was going to be signed, he could save his money and look elsewhere.  I personally think this is a pretty easy one to answer, but I'm certainly willing to listen to ideas to the contrary. 
3/29/2012 9:35 PM
blackdog3377
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Posted by dmurphy104 on 3/29/2012 9:29:00 PM (view original):
Yes it's collusion. You are trying to get information that you shouldnt have. You cant contact another coach and ask about recruits.
Yea thats pretty cut and dry collusion.
3/29/2012 10:06 PM
m4284850
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Well I read someones opinion on this a while back and it said as long as you're not ruining someone ELSE'S game experience than it should be cool.  I agree with that, I mean RL coaches call each other and ask about what other coaches are doing recruiting-wise (that however in  this game could hurt another player's game experience, and I'm certainly not condoning that).  But what I would be doing would be extremely direct and wouldn't harm anyone, so why should it not be allowed?  Just b/c it's not readily available to other coaches? Actually it is available for tthem, as they could do the same thing that I'm doing by sitemailing the coach. I don't really see the other side of the argument to this issue.  Seems pretty clear cut, that people are too strict about collusion in this game.

(sorry for the rant)
3/29/2012 10:19 PM
stinenavy
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But what I would be doing would be extremely direct and wouldn't harm anyone, so why should it not be allowed?  Just b/c it's not readily available to other coaches? Actually it is available for tthem, as they could do the same thing that I'm doing by sitemailing the coach.

So your argument is that the option to collude is there for everyone, thus it should be ok.
3/29/2012 10:35 PM
dmurphy104
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It seems to me that you asked the question already having your mind made up - hoping you'd get unanimous support.

First, sitemail is not an integrated part of the game itself, and should not be used to get extra information regarding recruiting. ANY sitemail to a coach looking to get information on a recruit is against WIS rules. They've been consistant on this, I believe. It's not about user's opinions--it's how WIS has answered these questions in the past.

Also--yes this would be hurting another user. If you are given information that leads you toa spend money on another recruit--thats a recruit that another user would have signed. You hurt that user by gathering information outside of the parameters of the game. And if the user you emailed knows you are backing off--he too saves money and uses it in another battle--potentially hurting another customer..
3/29/2012 10:42 PM (edited)
m4284850
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Posted by dmurphy104 on 3/29/2012 10:42:00 PM (view original):
It seems to me that you asked the question already having your mind made up - hoping you'd get unanimous support.

First, sitemail is not an integrated part of the game itself, and should not be used to get extra information regarding recruiting. ANY sitemail to a coach looking to get information on a recruit is against WIS rules. They've been consistant on this, I believe. It's not about user's opinions--it's how WIS has answered these questions in the past.

Also--yes this would be hurting another user. If you are given information that leads you toa spend money on another recruit--thats a recruit that another user would have signed. You hurt that user by gathering information outside of the parameters of the game. And if the user you emailed knows you are backing off--he too saves money and uses it in another battle--potentially hurting another customer..
Well I guess I did hope I'd get unanimous support haha (just wanted to see what other people thought) and I did have my my mind up.  You made some great arguments dmurphy.  I kind of agree with you I guess, but I think WIS should come out with an explicit colluding rule (maybe they have) b/c sometimes you do this kind of stuff unknowing(I would've but I did this thread instead) that you have broken the rules.  So maybe they could put it in the players guide or something of that nature.
3/29/2012 10:52 PM
emy1013
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Posted by m4284850 on 3/29/2012 10:19:00 PM (view original):
Well I read someones opinion on this a while back and it said as long as you're not ruining someone ELSE'S game experience than it should be cool.  I agree with that, I mean RL coaches call each other and ask about what other coaches are doing recruiting-wise (that however in  this game could hurt another player's game experience, and I'm certainly not condoning that).  But what I would be doing would be extremely direct and wouldn't harm anyone, so why should it not be allowed?  Just b/c it's not readily available to other coaches? Actually it is available for tthem, as they could do the same thing that I'm doing by sitemailing the coach. I don't really see the other side of the argument to this issue.  Seems pretty clear cut, that people are too strict about collusion in this game.

(sorry for the rant)
Hypothetically, suppose you sitemailed the other coach and he provided you with inside information on his plans for the player.  Coach X sitemails the same coach and doesn't have his sitemail answered.  Wouldn't this be benefitting you but not the other coach?

The part you may have missed above is that by gaining this info from the sitemailed coach, it helps you with your recruiting tactics either way.  No, I don't pursue and don't waste anymore money.  Yes, I do go after the player, knowing that he's not going to be signed by the higher division team, but since he's still listed (the D1 team) on the player's considering list (for the time being), knowing that the chances of another D2 team recruiting him are very low at that point.

Probably best not to discuss players at all during recruiting, that way there's really no gray area.  But I think it's fairly clear in your example in your initial post, that what you're suggesting would be considered collusion.  If you don't think it is, that's certainly your opinion, to each their own I guess.  I would bet, though, that if you sent a ticket in to CS and worded it exactly as you had worded your initial post, you probably wouldn't like their response.  Just my opinion....

***Edit***  Sorry, just saw that the other team's division was not stated.  Just assumed it was one level higher than yours.  Doesn't change my answer, but I do hate to make assumptions.  Apologies again.
3/29/2012 11:06 PM (edited)
emy1013
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Posted by dmurphy104 on 3/29/2012 10:42:00 PM (view original):
It seems to me that you asked the question already having your mind made up - hoping you'd get unanimous support.

First, sitemail is not an integrated part of the game itself, and should not be used to get extra information regarding recruiting. ANY sitemail to a coach looking to get information on a recruit is against WIS rules. They've been consistant on this, I believe. It's not about user's opinions--it's how WIS has answered these questions in the past.

Also--yes this would be hurting another user. If you are given information that leads you toa spend money on another recruit--thats a recruit that another user would have signed. You hurt that user by gathering information outside of the parameters of the game. And if the user you emailed knows you are backing off--he too saves money and uses it in another battle--potentially hurting another customer..
Seems DMurphy beat me to the punch.
3/29/2012 10:55 PM
blackdog3377
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Posted by m4284850 on 3/29/2012 10:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dmurphy104 on 3/29/2012 10:42:00 PM (view original):
It seems to me that you asked the question already having your mind made up - hoping you'd get unanimous support.

First, sitemail is not an integrated part of the game itself, and should not be used to get extra information regarding recruiting. ANY sitemail to a coach looking to get information on a recruit is against WIS rules. They've been consistant on this, I believe. It's not about user's opinions--it's how WIS has answered these questions in the past.

Also--yes this would be hurting another user. If you are given information that leads you toa spend money on another recruit--thats a recruit that another user would have signed. You hurt that user by gathering information outside of the parameters of the game. And if the user you emailed knows you are backing off--he too saves money and uses it in another battle--potentially hurting another customer..
Well I guess I did hope I'd get unanimous support haha (just wanted to see what other people thought) and I did have my my mind up.  You made some great arguments dmurphy.  I kind of agree with you I guess, but I think WIS should come out with an explicit colluding rule (maybe they have) b/c sometimes you do this kind of stuff unknowing(I would've but I did this thread instead) that you have broken the rules.  So maybe they could put it in the players guide or something of that nature.
They have come up with rules and your scenario is something they have said in the past is collusion and will be punished if caught.
3/30/2012 2:25 AM
girt25
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A dmurph sighting -- very exciting!

3/30/2012 11:30 AM
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