Posted by milkamania on 5/12/2012 12:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mykids_31206 on 5/12/2012 8:36:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 5/12/2012 2:59:00 AM (view original):

Posted by professor17 on 5/11/2012 10:20:00 PM (view original):
If you were starting from scratch it'd be a no-brainer. The question is how does WIS go about a realignment to better reflect real life without disrupting worlds that have been in progress for 40+ seasons? If you start moving teams with human coaches around, people are bound to get upset. Either because they don't like where their own team gets moved to, or because someone who's coaching at Utah or TCU who hasn't yet earned a BCS job suddenly gets gifted into one. I guess they'd have to weigh the cost/benefit of hopefully attracting more customers with more current conference alignments vs. potential loss of existing customers by messing with their current worlds.

Fine, suggestion withdrawn.   Here's an easy but necessary step.  Follow real life and guarantee the regular season champion (any tie-breaker would do to determine the champ) of all leagues a spot in the PIT in case they fail to win their CT and make it into the big dance.  If real life can do it, so can WIS.

I like following the real life setup in the NCAA where a low DI can win its Conference and got to the NT. I like how mid-majors work their way to Big 6 in real life. Those are the fun parts of NCAA basketball to me. Its difficult to do one and you would take away the other.

Just remove baseline prestige and you will have a world that will mimic the ability of schools to reach Big 6 status just like NCAA. You cant copy the changes in the Conferences based on because schools would underdeservingly move to Big 6. But if you remove baseline prestige. Any Conferences that move to Big 6 could not do it unless they earned it.

If you remove baseline prestige, there is no Big 6 anymore.  The patriot league, ivy league, big east, ACC, all interchangeable.  D1 would become D2 and D3,

Posted by angmar on 5/12/2012 12:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by milkamania on 5/12/2012 12:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mykids_31206 on 5/12/2012 8:36:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 5/12/2012 2:59:00 AM (view original):

Posted by professor17 on 5/11/2012 10:20:00 PM (view original):
If you were starting from scratch it'd be a no-brainer. The question is how does WIS go about a realignment to better reflect real life without disrupting worlds that have been in progress for 40+ seasons? If you start moving teams with human coaches around, people are bound to get upset. Either because they don't like where their own team gets moved to, or because someone who's coaching at Utah or TCU who hasn't yet earned a BCS job suddenly gets gifted into one. I guess they'd have to weigh the cost/benefit of hopefully attracting more customers with more current conference alignments vs. potential loss of existing customers by messing with their current worlds.

Fine, suggestion withdrawn.   Here's an easy but necessary step.  Follow real life and guarantee the regular season champion (any tie-breaker would do to determine the champ) of all leagues a spot in the PIT in case they fail to win their CT and make it into the big dance.  If real life can do it, so can WIS.

I like following the real life setup in the NCAA where a low DI can win its Conference and got to the NT. I like how mid-majors work their way to Big 6 in real life. Those are the fun parts of NCAA basketball to me. Its difficult to do one and you would take away the other.

Just remove baseline prestige and you will have a world that will mimic the ability of schools to reach Big 6 status just like NCAA. You cant copy the changes in the Conferences based on because schools would underdeservingly move to Big 6. But if you remove baseline prestige. Any Conferences that move to Big 6 could not do it unless they earned it.

If you remove baseline prestige, there is no Big 6 anymore.  The patriot league, ivy league, big east, ACC, all interchangeable.  D1 would become D2 and D3,

This.  Not sure why this seems to be so hard to comprehend.

Posted by mykids_31206 on 5/12/2012 6:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by angmar on 5/12/2012 12:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by milkamania on 5/12/2012 12:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mykids_31206 on 5/12/2012 8:36:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 5/12/2012 2:59:00 AM (view original):

Posted by professor17 on 5/11/2012 10:20:00 PM (view original):
If you were starting from scratch it'd be a no-brainer. The question is how does WIS go about a realignment to better reflect real life without disrupting worlds that have been in progress for 40+ seasons? If you start moving teams with human coaches around, people are bound to get upset. Either because they don't like where their own team gets moved to, or because someone who's coaching at Utah or TCU who hasn't yet earned a BCS job suddenly gets gifted into one. I guess they'd have to weigh the cost/benefit of hopefully attracting more customers with more current conference alignments vs. potential loss of existing customers by messing with their current worlds.

Fine, suggestion withdrawn.   Here's an easy but necessary step.  Follow real life and guarantee the regular season champion (any tie-breaker would do to determine the champ) of all leagues a spot in the PIT in case they fail to win their CT and make it into the big dance.  If real life can do it, so can WIS.

I like following the real life setup in the NCAA where a low DI can win its Conference and got to the NT. I like how mid-majors work their way to Big 6 in real life. Those are the fun parts of NCAA basketball to me. Its difficult to do one and you would take away the other.

Just remove baseline prestige and you will have a world that will mimic the ability of schools to reach Big 6 status just like NCAA. You cant copy the changes in the Conferences based on because schools would underdeservingly move to Big 6. But if you remove baseline prestige. Any Conferences that move to Big 6 could not do it unless they earned it.

If you remove baseline prestige, there is no Big 6 anymore.  The patriot league, ivy league, big east, ACC, all interchangeable.  D1 would become D2 and D3,

This.  Not sure why this seems to be so hard to comprehend.

I do not understand why it is so hard to comprehend that in real life people want to coach at the elite schools. In HD it is the same. You will still have good coaches coaching elite schools. Coaches will always be gunning to coach those elite schools.  In  HD we dont have coaches who are gunning to coach certain DII or DIII schools. 99% of coaches have never even heard of any of those schools.

So if you remove baseline prestige, DI will never be like DII or DIII because of the popularity of the elite schools. Just like in real life.

Now tell me. Why is that so hard to understand, comprehend, fathom?

Posted by tbird9423 on 5/13/2012 8:07:00 PM (view original):
Let's not hold everyone back because some people don't want to test themselves against the best.  I just don't like that argument at all and that suggests the best coaches will look for the easiest route to win-- If that's the case, then there shouldn't be an issue with them looking for an easy route using baseline prestige or location -- but at least the teams in high demand will be open.  You can take DUKE or NC, but might be tougher than competing with UTAH.  To think that taking baseline prestige out of this game is going to change the demand to coach DUKE, NC, etc on a grand scale is something I would be willing to bet against.

Posted by tianyi7886 on 5/13/2012 8:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tbird9423 on 5/13/2012 8:07:00 PM (view original):
Let's not hold everyone back because some people don't want to test themselves against the best.  I just don't like that argument at all and that suggests the best coaches will look for the easiest route to win-- If that's the case, then there shouldn't be an issue with them looking for an easy route using baseline prestige or location -- but at least the teams in high demand will be open.  You can take DUKE or NC, but might be tougher than competing with UTAH.  To think that taking baseline prestige out of this game is going to change the demand to coach DUKE, NC, etc on a grand scale is something I would be willing to bet against.

What is Duke or UNC in this game, except a name? Why do you think coaches flock to ACC and high baseline teams while abandoning other teams? Is it solely the attraction of the name? It's most likely due to the inherent advantage in recruiting by being at the A+ baseline. 

Or just look at things more pragmatically. If you have been following D1 movements even semi closely, you will clearly see how often coaches move out of schools like Florida (right in the heart of ACC territory) for Colorado, because Colorado is the only school in the region. 

If name brand attraction is so strong, why hasn't Florida in Phelan been filled yet? I know why but I'm sure you are just going to call bs on it once I provide the reason. 

If you want 0 baseline, just play D2/D3. 

Posted by mykids_31206 on 5/14/2012 8:32:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 5/13/2012 8:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tbird9423 on 5/13/2012 8:07:00 PM (view original):
Let's not hold everyone back because some people don't want to test themselves against the best.  I just don't like that argument at all and that suggests the best coaches will look for the easiest route to win-- If that's the case, then there shouldn't be an issue with them looking for an easy route using baseline prestige or location -- but at least the teams in high demand will be open.  You can take DUKE or NC, but might be tougher than competing with UTAH.  To think that taking baseline prestige out of this game is going to change the demand to coach DUKE, NC, etc on a grand scale is something I would be willing to bet against.

What is Duke or UNC in this game, except a name? Why do you think coaches flock to ACC and high baseline teams while abandoning other teams? Is it solely the attraction of the name? It's most likely due to the inherent advantage in recruiting by being at the A+ baseline. 

Or just look at things more pragmatically. If you have been following D1 movements even semi closely, you will clearly see how often coaches move out of schools like Florida (right in the heart of ACC territory) for Colorado, because Colorado is the only school in the region. 

If name brand attraction is so strong, why hasn't Florida in Phelan been filled yet? I know why but I'm sure you are just going to call bs on it once I provide the reason. 

If you want 0 baseline, just play D2/D3. 

Phelan...Kinda small sample size, or you got a Florida open in every other world?

I do recognize the popularity of keeping baseline prestige, but I just cant agree with these arguments being presented against removing baseline prestige. Its obvious that in real life teams fall from greatness to mediocrity and teams rise from nothing to become household names at the minimum.

I people arguing against my points, but they just dont see valid to me and just repeating the same thing.

I am not going to keep repeating my points because I done want to join the redundancy.

D2 D3 is not the same level. and people want to build a DI dynasty not inherit one. Its the pinnacle.

Posted by tianyi7886 on 5/14/2012 10:36:00 AM (view original):

Posted by mykids_31206 on 5/14/2012 8:32:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 5/13/2012 8:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tbird9423 on 5/13/2012 8:07:00 PM (view original):
Let's not hold everyone back because some people don't want to test themselves against the best.  I just don't like that argument at all and that suggests the best coaches will look for the easiest route to win-- If that's the case, then there shouldn't be an issue with them looking for an easy route using baseline prestige or location -- but at least the teams in high demand will be open.  You can take DUKE or NC, but might be tougher than competing with UTAH.  To think that taking baseline prestige out of this game is going to change the demand to coach DUKE, NC, etc on a grand scale is something I would be willing to bet against.

What is Duke or UNC in this game, except a name? Why do you think coaches flock to ACC and high baseline teams while abandoning other teams? Is it solely the attraction of the name? It's most likely due to the inherent advantage in recruiting by being at the A+ baseline. 

Or just look at things more pragmatically. If you have been following D1 movements even semi closely, you will clearly see how often coaches move out of schools like Florida (right in the heart of ACC territory) for Colorado, because Colorado is the only school in the region. 

If name brand attraction is so strong, why hasn't Florida in Phelan been filled yet? I know why but I'm sure you are just going to call bs on it once I provide the reason. 

If you want 0 baseline, just play D2/D3. 

Phelan...Kinda small sample size, or you got a Florida open in every other world?

I do recognize the popularity of keeping baseline prestige, but I just cant agree with these arguments being presented against removing baseline prestige. Its obvious that in real life teams fall from greatness to mediocrity and teams rise from nothing to become household names at the minimum.

I people arguing against my points, but they just dont see valid to me and just repeating the same thing.

I am not going to keep repeating my points because I done want to join the redundancy.

D2 D3 is not the same level. and people want to build a DI dynasty not inherit one. Its the pinnacle.

Are you saying it's impossible to take a non-bcs team to greatness under the current system with baseline? I highly disagree:

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=4364

Posted by tbird9423 on 5/14/2012 2:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 5/14/2012 10:36:00 AM (view original):

Posted by mykids_31206 on 5/14/2012 8:32:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 5/13/2012 8:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tbird9423 on 5/13/2012 8:07:00 PM (view original):
Let's not hold everyone back because some people don't want to test themselves against the best.  I just don't like that argument at all and that suggests the best coaches will look for the easiest route to win-- If that's the case, then there shouldn't be an issue with them looking for an easy route using baseline prestige or location -- but at least the teams in high demand will be open.  You can take DUKE or NC, but might be tougher than competing with UTAH.  To think that taking baseline prestige out of this game is going to change the demand to coach DUKE, NC, etc on a grand scale is something I would be willing to bet against.

What is Duke or UNC in this game, except a name? Why do you think coaches flock to ACC and high baseline teams while abandoning other teams? Is it solely the attraction of the name? It's most likely due to the inherent advantage in recruiting by being at the A+ baseline. 

Or just look at things more pragmatically. If you have been following D1 movements even semi closely, you will clearly see how often coaches move out of schools like Florida (right in the heart of ACC territory) for Colorado, because Colorado is the only school in the region. 

If name brand attraction is so strong, why hasn't Florida in Phelan been filled yet? I know why but I'm sure you are just going to call bs on it once I provide the reason. 

If you want 0 baseline, just play D2/D3. 

Phelan...Kinda small sample size, or you got a Florida open in every other world?

I do recognize the popularity of keeping baseline prestige, but I just cant agree with these arguments being presented against removing baseline prestige. Its obvious that in real life teams fall from greatness to mediocrity and teams rise from nothing to become household names at the minimum.

I people arguing against my points, but they just dont see valid to me and just repeating the same thing.

I am not going to keep repeating my points because I done want to join the redundancy.

D2 D3 is not the same level. and people want to build a DI dynasty not inherit one. Its the pinnacle.

Are you saying it's impossible to take a non-bcs team to greatness under the current system with baseline? I highly disagree:

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=4364

Tianyi-- Usually like what you have to say but I agree that their doesn't really seem to be any reasoning be given on why baseline prestige should be in other than "to model real life or real life around 2002".  Again, I will say that we are arguing the same point as your examples of teams moving show that teams are looking for an advantage that is not available to all players.    

I also totally agree with the building a DI dynasty rather than spending enough money to buy one.  Right now, the cost of a DI dynasty is xx seasons at DIV III, xx seasons at DIV II, xx seasons at DIV I small school and then you get to become part of the "it" crowd.  Of course there is different routes but I imagine there are people out there (AllBlack?) who could take a small DIV I school and build them into a contender pretty quickly if the baselines weren't in place.  They would be playing the same game against people using the same rules, so don't see any reason this is a bad thing-- Would actually force everyone to get better and not just rely on the amount of $ they spent and the correlated advantages that money has bought to maitain a dominant position.

I think we all agree that the current system gives a large advantage to high baseline schools.  It seems as simple as coming down on the side of either A. I want to compete on a level playing field where my decisions affect  my results or B. I want there to be imbalance in the equity of the sim because there is inequity in real life.  Simple as that agree with AllBlack that there is nothing wrong with either choice, just preference.  It would be nice to have the choice and I think if we had one world where baseline prestige/conf prestige didn't play such a factor, it would be the true measure of talent and so would be the fullest world very quickly.  Especially since many openly state they avoid DI because of the prestige issues. 

Not to ramble, but... I also think this is very closely tied to the reason newbies don't stay around and the worlds aren't full and ever-expanding.  I didn't start playing to coach Holy Family or Defiance for the next twenty years and imagine I am not abnormal in regards to that.  When I learn that not only do the vets have a substantial advantage in their knowledge and experience of the game but they also have an advantage engrained into the system, it makes getting my *** kicked for four years while I weed out the ****** recruits and learn how to recruit kind of pointless.  I'm doing this so I can ... coach in D2 or D3??? 

You are right in that it comes down to a choice between A & B.  Luckily WIS gives us the option to have either.  In your scenario, there wouldn't be a choice.  If you want your "A" scenario, play D2 or D3, you get the game you want and all your decisions are all that matter.  If you want your "B" scenario, you move to D1 and get to try what is in essence a completely different game.  I have teams in D2 and D1 because I like both and am challenged differently by both.  Should baseline be removed, all we would have is option A, there would be no choice.
There are ways to improve the D1 experience without removing baseline prestige.  I'll even concede I agree that the effect of it needs to be lessened somewhat, but it does need to be in the game to differentiate between D1 and the other levels.   If you removed baseline prestige, you would have to remove all restrictions in the hiring logic for D1 or no one would ever go to the Big 6 schools.  In that scenario, as someone mentioned before I think, you get hired at a D level kind of school, you build it up and become a power, and then what?? You leave to take Seton Hall??  Sure, maybe Duke, Carolina, Kansas, Kentucky still get picked up, but the Rutgers, and the Clemsons, and the Mississippi States of the world would never get filled. 
Fix recruiting to give mid majors more options, make star level recruits require a mimimum amount of effort to encourage more battles and stop the ridiculous amount of carryover cash and fix the E/E logic and I think 90% of D1 problems would be solved.