colonels19: "I won't get it"

Truer words, etc.

If I had to guess, Yatzr put in 100's of hours updating and building tools for GD. So a "donation" for additional features shouldn't be that big of a deal. His recruiting tool for GD has literally saved me weeks of time over 40 seasons. Allowing me to do other **** besides stare at huge columns of numbers. The time it saves me in itself is worth $10

Posted by nauds3000 on 5/17/2012 6:13:00 PM (view original):
If I had to guess, Yatzr put in 100's of hours updating and building tools for GD. So a "donation" for additional features shouldn't be that big of a deal. His recruiting tool for GD has literally saved me weeks of time over 40 seasons. Allowing me to do other **** besides stare at huge columns of numbers. The time it saves me in itself is worth $10

heck the time it saves id pay much more than $10! haha

Posted by nauds3000 on 5/17/2012 6:13:00 PM (view original):
If I had to guess, Yatzr put in 100's of hours updating and building tools for GD. So a "donation" for additional features shouldn't be that big of a deal. His recruiting tool for GD has literally saved me weeks of time over 40 seasons. Allowing me to do other **** besides stare at huge columns of numbers. The time it saves me in itself is worth $10

100s of hours? Lol...gtfo.

Also, again, just because someone spent time on something doesnt mean its worth buying or they should be paid for their work. I seem to recruit as well if not better than u in about a 10th of the time...

Posted by colonels19 on 5/17/2012 8:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nauds3000 on 5/17/2012 6:13:00 PM (view original):
If I had to guess, Yatzr put in 100's of hours updating and building tools for GD. So a "donation" for additional features shouldn't be that big of a deal. His recruiting tool for GD has literally saved me weeks of time over 40 seasons. Allowing me to do other **** besides stare at huge columns of numbers. The time it saves me in itself is worth $10

100s of hours? Lol...gtfo.

Also, again, just because someone spent time on something doesnt mean its worth buying or they should be paid for their work. I seem to recruit as well if not better than u in about a 10th of the time...

Nope, but it he has proven that his tools ARE worth buying.

It's kind of like the iPad. They'd already had the iPhone out, and the technology was very much the same. Now, the iPad is a different product than the iPhone, but we all knew Apple was making a good product. Why? Because of a previous product that was similar and well made. 

Posted by emy1013 on 5/17/2012 12:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 5/17/2012 11:15:00 AM (view original):
a btw, THIS is why the HD forums are "dead" compared to the old days. because of idiots like those in this thread, complaining for no reason. so to the idiots in the thread - thank you, you are the downfall of (the HD) society. congratulations. you make it so bad that most users simply won't participate.

Irony at it's finest.

i suppose this is better than your earlier, down-right nasty post, which you deleted. but, i guess you already know that. i am not claiming i HAVENT made some dumb posts, i played here for 5 years and have made thousands and thousands of posts. do i regret a good 10 or 20 of them? hell yes. if you take away posts in relation to 1 particular coach (the one you mentioned), on a matter i will no longer discuss because there is nothing to be gained, its really just a handful, i would like to retract. am i perfect? no, of course not, nor am i close. but i do try to help people on the forums, especially new coaches, because that is good for the game.

the reason i, from time to time, rail against the negativity on the forums, is simple. well over a dozen coaches, probably 20 or 30 over the course of my years in this game, have site mailed me, leading up to or following their question with something very much like this -
hey, sorry to bother you, i saw you post in the forums, and i had a question but i don't post there because people are so rude, could you help me?

im sure you think me an arrogant person, you've made that clear, but i am not so arrogant to think that i have helped, say, 10% of the community who feels that way. there are a LOT of helpful veterans in this game and i don't think an absurdly large share of people come to me for help, instead of those other vets. ive coached for roughly 5 years and like most many-year reasonably successful coaches, ive gotten pretty many sitemails asking for help. however, the amount with the sentiment in the above line really disturbs me. if i have directly been asked for help by say 1% of all coaches who feel like the above, which sounds like the highest figure i could throw out without sounding TOO conceited (there are well over 100 vets), it would put literally thousands of coaches in that camp. a couple thousand coaches who check in on the forums, but who were not willing to post because there is SUCH a negatively aggressive atmosphere. i don't know about you, but i think the forums could really benefit from their participation.

and no to colonels, i am not blaming you for the worlds' problems. in fact, i hardly blame you at all. everyone has seen your rhetoric, and if someone gets offended by your posts at this point, well that is just a little silly. but when respected, established coaches come out and attack people without reason, thats when it really hurts the community. and i deeply believe that is what has happened to the forums here. a LOT of coaches agree with me, but many will not come out and say it. which gets back to the original point...

Posted by colonels19 on 5/17/2012 8:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nauds3000 on 5/17/2012 6:13:00 PM (view original):
If I had to guess, Yatzr put in 100's of hours updating and building tools for GD. So a "donation" for additional features shouldn't be that big of a deal. His recruiting tool for GD has literally saved me weeks of time over 40 seasons. Allowing me to do other **** besides stare at huge columns of numbers. The time it saves me in itself is worth $10

100s of hours? Lol...gtfo.

Also, again, just because someone spent time on something doesnt mean its worth buying or they should be paid for their work. I seem to recruit as well if not better than u in about a 10th of the time...

lol, you sure like to talk like you know what I've actually done for GD.  I've been working on GD tools, and other code for various GD statistics and analysis, on and off for 3.5 years.  If I had to guesstimate, I'd put it somewhere around 400 hours total.  You crack me up.

Posted by yatzr on 5/17/2012 9:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by colonels19 on 5/17/2012 8:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nauds3000 on 5/17/2012 6:13:00 PM (view original):
If I had to guess, Yatzr put in 100's of hours updating and building tools for GD. So a "donation" for additional features shouldn't be that big of a deal. His recruiting tool for GD has literally saved me weeks of time over 40 seasons. Allowing me to do other **** besides stare at huge columns of numbers. The time it saves me in itself is worth $10

100s of hours? Lol...gtfo.

Also, again, just because someone spent time on something doesnt mean its worth buying or they should be paid for their work. I seem to recruit as well if not better than u in about a 10th of the time...

lol, you sure like to talk like you know what I've actually done for GD.  I've been working on GD tools, and other code for various GD statistics and analysis, on and off for 3.5 years.  If I had to guesstimate, I'd put it somewhere around 400 hours total.  You crack me up.

As some other coaches have said, just ignore him. That's what I'm gonna do from here on out.... I only played a couple of seasons of GD but I know the huge impact you have had on the game. For him to say "100s of hours? Lol...gtfo." is uneducated and brazen.

Posted by backboy13 on 5/17/2012 9:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by yatzr on 5/17/2012 9:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by colonels19 on 5/17/2012 8:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nauds3000 on 5/17/2012 6:13:00 PM (view original):
If I had to guess, Yatzr put in 100's of hours updating and building tools for GD. So a "donation" for additional features shouldn't be that big of a deal. His recruiting tool for GD has literally saved me weeks of time over 40 seasons. Allowing me to do other **** besides stare at huge columns of numbers. The time it saves me in itself is worth $10

100s of hours? Lol...gtfo.

Also, again, just because someone spent time on something doesnt mean its worth buying or they should be paid for their work. I seem to recruit as well if not better than u in about a 10th of the time...

lol, you sure like to talk like you know what I've actually done for GD.  I've been working on GD tools, and other code for various GD statistics and analysis, on and off for 3.5 years.  If I had to guesstimate, I'd put it somewhere around 400 hours total.  You crack me up.

As some other coaches have said, just ignore him. That's what I'm gonna do from here on out.... I only played a couple of seasons of GD but I know the huge impact you have had on the game. For him to say "100s of hours? Lol...gtfo." is uneducated and brazen.

exactly!!

that 100s of hours figure is totally reasonable. im a programmer, well, im not now, i do it a bit but mostly i manage now, sadly. but i used to be a pretty good one though, competed in collegiate programming competitions at the international level, and the like. if anyone is skeptical of that 100s of hours figures, i totally stand behind it. programs with a clean user interface are pretty much always time consuming. *especially* when you add detailed features at the end of the process - which i am sure is the case, it sounds like yatzr's program evolved over time based on requests. if you don't believe me, ask *any* software developer how costly it is to make significant changes to requirements after development was largely completed. a simple coder may not understand but any software developer worth a penny absolutely would. i hope anyway - its amazing how many guys, even 100K/year guys, are totally clueless. but i guess that is the world of computers for you... a lot of techy people seem to have about as much common sense as their computers!

edit: p.s. this is gillispie, i use a few IDs...

Posted by ryrun on 5/17/2012 12:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 5/17/2012 11:14:00 AM (view original):
people need to learn to not respond to colonels. its not like anyone agreed with him, before you refute him, and you will never convince him personally. it just makes him post more, which EVERYONE agrees is a bad thing.

i'm an eyeballer too. however, i will absolutely make a donation for this tool, even if i don't use it, because its cool, and because i am glad there is somebody doing what yatzr is doing and am MORE than happy to support the effort. 

on the donation VS pay thing, i agree, non GD users are basically paying for the tool, IF you just pay 10 dollars for just the tool. pay more, and now, its a donation (viola!). but anyway, for those with reading comprehension skills, you will note that this tool was made by request of existing donors, so he put it out, so any other donors could see it and take advantage. he did not ask people pay to 10 dollars for the tool, or solicit new users. however, *IF* a new users wants to pay 10 dollars for the tool, they can. OR, you can make a donation for the tool. its your choice. but its NOT sneaky wording by him. he gives software away free and allows people to make donations, and then gives them some extra stuff as a thank you. that is the spirit of the system, its not a gimmick. i can see the source of confusion, for HD people who don't play GD (i don't play GD), but when you think about it, its pretty obvious he is playing above board here. WAY above board, you could say. hes a guy who made something free and people liked it so much they donated money to him, and THAT is the spirit of it. pretty cool, if you ask me.

Your explanation of the "donation vs pay thing" is just... wrong.

He most certainly asked for $10 - at least $10, that is - give him more if you'd like (so your donation would be $X - $10).  If I go to Subway and ask for a sandwich, they don't say "This sandwich requires a donation of at least $5."  No, they say "This sandwich costs $5.  Give it."  Then there's this little jar with the word "Tips" on it right by the cash register in case you want to make a donation to the workers (which, as long as they aren't stingy with the ingredients, they'll usually get).  So, the cost of this tool is $10, then you can donate on top of that.  But to call the $10 purchase a donation is just ridiculous.  If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then call it a duck.  Donation just sounds better to people than cost, so it most certainly is sneaky wording.  Try making a $2 donation and see what happens.

He totally solicited new users - why do you think this thread is here?  To get new users.  It wasn't to say "hey, check out this tool I made - ok, thanks, bye"... no, it was "check out this scraper tool I made for a donation of at least $10."  If he wanted to send it out so any of his donors could see it and take advantage (as you erroneously assumed), then I'm sure he has options to distribute this information just to them, be it on the site he posts his tools on gdreports.com or through a donor list that I would assume he keeps w/ an email address.  But then he wouldn't get more "donations", so that'd be foolish if he wants more users (read as: more money).  

So he's using logic that he's already built for GD and likely went through a very small customization process for HD to get more money.  I mean, no offense to him, but it's not exactly a robust or well designed application - it's a very plain form with a couple controls and some tables with Excel export functionality.  I'm assuming most of this logic is modularized, so the customization is very minimal (and if it wasn't developed like that, it should have been).  Maybe it has some huge use in GD that warranted a $10 price tag, but what I see just isn't worth it.  And yet, people will pay it.  Just like they used to pay (sorry, "donate") $3 for a "flashlight" on the iPhone, which was just a white f'n screen - that developer made $10k in the first week that app was out there, for starting a new project and then pushing it to the app store.

I wouldn't say he's playing "WAY above board"... I'd say he used to be looking down on the board back when this initially started and he made the free tool.  Then he saw that he could make some money off of it and here we are with a more money-driven approach.  Yes, it is pretty cool that he made it for free initially and people donated to him - no, it's not pretty cool that he took that as "hey, I can charge for this" and then limited the distribution or functionality of the applications based on "donations".  

Just say the thing costs $10 and be done with it.  How that is confusing to anyone is beyond me.  I'm not trying to come down on the guy for trying to make some extra money, and yes, it's great that someone is doing dev work on HD since WIS apparently isn't anymore, but just be straight with people about it.

the original post:
" That said, I'd recommend waiting until others give a review of its usefulness before giving me any money."

the last post on the subject:
" That said, I am planning on making the HD recruit tool similar to the GD recruit tool where it's free, but some features, like mass recruiting and response processing, will be limited to donors. "

really, i am trying not to be ignorant or hide behind word play. but when i read those statements, and how this came about in GD, i just dont think its at all fair to call out yatzr, as being sneaky or not above board, for the use of the word donation. i can understand if you don't agree with the use of the word, but to call it under handed or whatever just seems downright wrong, to me.

maybe we shut put up the link to this forum in the GD forums and watch how many people back up yatzr(which will be EVERYBODY!!) lmao

Over the course of 3.5 years, with constant tweaks and updates over multiple tools, I could maybe believe the 400 hours.  I have no reason to doubt him, so whatever.  I don't know the evolution of the apps... looking at the screen caps of the final results in the documentation, I'd have a hard time with the 400 hours in a vacuum, but maybe there was a lot of research that needed to be done or something along those lines.

I'm not coming down on yatzr here from a development standpoint - I think it's great what he's doing/has done.  And honestly it's motivated me to start working on an app for HD for some ideas I used to kick around, so maybe I'll actually get to finish that if I can find 20-30 extra hours to do it right from scratch.  What he has created for GD sounds fantastic and this is the first I've heard of it, so that's really cool and I respect that.  It's never been about the application itself, my issue has been about the distribution.

I'm a senior developer for a very large company and also do some freelance mobile dev on the side, and I've always been a big fan of open source distribution, be they applications I've created or others, so this irked me a bit.  Especially if it's something that wasn't contracted and was for a hobby like WIS... but whatever, if there's a demand and he can make money from some people, that's no fault to him, it's just a personal preference.  I just think if you're going to charge for something, charge for it and be transparent about it.  So lines like this: "If you give me donations, I'll feel obligated to provide updates :)" and putting a "donation" link on every single page for his tools rubbed me the wrong way.

Posted by coach_billyg on 5/17/2012 9:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by emy1013 on 5/17/2012 12:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 5/17/2012 11:15:00 AM (view original):
a btw, THIS is why the HD forums are "dead" compared to the old days. because of idiots like those in this thread, complaining for no reason. so to the idiots in the thread - thank you, you are the downfall of (the HD) society. congratulations. you make it so bad that most users simply won't participate.

Irony at it's finest.

i suppose this is better than your earlier, down-right nasty post, which you deleted. but, i guess you already know that. i am not claiming i HAVENT made some dumb posts, i played here for 5 years and have made thousands and thousands of posts. do i regret a good 10 or 20 of them? hell yes. if you take away posts in relation to 1 particular coach (the one you mentioned), on a matter i will no longer discuss because there is nothing to be gained, its really just a handful, i would like to retract. am i perfect? no, of course not, nor am i close. but i do try to help people on the forums, especially new coaches, because that is good for the game.

the reason i, from time to time, rail against the negativity on the forums, is simple. well over a dozen coaches, probably 20 or 30 over the course of my years in this game, have site mailed me, leading up to or following their question with something very much like this -
hey, sorry to bother you, i saw you post in the forums, and i had a question but i don't post there because people are so rude, could you help me?

im sure you think me an arrogant person, you've made that clear, but i am not so arrogant to think that i have helped, say, 10% of the community who feels that way. there are a LOT of helpful veterans in this game and i don't think an absurdly large share of people come to me for help, instead of those other vets. ive coached for roughly 5 years and like most many-year reasonably successful coaches, ive gotten pretty many sitemails asking for help. however, the amount with the sentiment in the above line really disturbs me. if i have directly been asked for help by say 1% of all coaches who feel like the above, which sounds like the highest figure i could throw out without sounding TOO conceited (there are well over 100 vets), it would put literally thousands of coaches in that camp. a couple thousand coaches who check in on the forums, but who were not willing to post because there is SUCH a negatively aggressive atmosphere. i don't know about you, but i think the forums could really benefit from their participation.

and no to colonels, i am not blaming you for the worlds' problems. in fact, i hardly blame you at all. everyone has seen your rhetoric, and if someone gets offended by your posts at this point, well that is just a little silly. but when respected, established coaches come out and attack people without reason, thats when it really hurts the community. and i deeply believe that is what has happened to the forums here. a LOT of coaches agree with me, but many will not come out and say it. which gets back to the original point...

Let me ask you something Jeff on a serious note.  New coaches don't have any idea who Colonels is, don't know him from the guy down the road, or the kid working behind the counter at the local 7-11.  They don't know his "style" of posting in threads or how he normally interacts with the rest of the community and how the rest of the community interacts with him.  Yet there are many examples of you dogging him, trash talking him, insulting him, call it what you will.  You think THAT doesn't leave an impression on newer coaches?  Do you think that somehow just because you're responding to a post that Colonels made that it somehow doesn't count towards promoting a "negatively aggressive atmosphere"?  Pot, I'd like you to meet kettle.  Again, these newer coaches that are just visiting the forums for the first few times don't know Colonels history.  All they see is some guy named Gillispie or Coach_BillyG taking a shot at some guy named Colonels19, and vice versa.  You're smart enough to see, that from a new coach's perspective, you're committing the EXACT same acts that you're on here ranting and raving and complaining about.  Just because it's Colonels doesn't mean it doesn't count.  Think about it and think about all those coaches who you probably consider good guys that do the same thing and tell me with a straight face that's not being hypocritical as hell.  Guarantee that if Colonels was to create a new ID named CoachBilly_G and post the exact same things that he does now, people would mistake him for you and would think that what he was posting was hilarious or clever as could be, but because they see Colonels attached to the post, it's an automatic free-for-all against the guy.  Hypo-frickin-crites, every last one of them.

And yes, the post I deleted probably was perceived as down-right nasty.  I deleted it because I didn't think it would do any good for the rest of the users to see it, but I'm glad that you saw it before I took it down.  For what it's worth, I stand by everything that was in it.  For what it's also worth, I respect your abilities as a coach in this game as much as anyone I've ever had the chance to coach against.  But, to be perfectly honest, some of the things that you've posted both in the forums and in certain Coaches Corners have made me lose a lot of respect for you as a person (well, as much respect as one can lose for an anonymous internet ID anyway). 

I'm sure that you, and several others, would say the same thing about me, and believe it or not, I'm okay with that.  Fine.  Doesn't bother me a bit.  I'm not one of those guys that needs everyone to like me and I don't lose not one second of sleep when someone says that they hate me, can't stand me, doesn't respect me, whatever.  I know exactly one coach in HD personally.  The odds of me running into anyone who plays this game on the street is virtually non-existent, so as callous as this may sound, I don't care what ANYONE playing this game thinks about me.  Couldn't possibly care less.  In fact, I'll go so far as to say that any given HD coach's opinion of me means slightly less than jack sh!t in my book.  Everyone here, save that one coach, is just some other anonymous ID that I'll never meet and to be brutally frank, hope that I never do meet.  On that note, have yourself a wonderful rest of the evening and think about that opening paragraph again.  From a newer coach's eyes, depending upon when he reads his first thread, you insulting Colonels might just be the post that turns him away from HD for good, not somebody else's remarks.

I don't know who colonels is and I really don't care. He has taken every comment and turned it into an argument. He has no reality on the tools Yatzr has created and the amount of updates he's made for them. AND FOR FREE. Yes it is 100s of hours of work and until you understand the amount of work put in you really have no right to question Yatzr.

emy, im pretty sure that coaches are upset about the attitude toward innocent posters who come in with legitimate questions and get shot down. but there is some validity to your point. i need to heed my own advice and simply not respond. FWIW, the people who i have talked to do read the forums from time to time, just never post. so they would hopefully be aware of his antics, although that doesn't make it right, just hopefully minimizes impact. and it pretty much takes 1 thread to see how unreasonable he is. also i basically never talk to him, just comment to other coaches who seem to take his sentiments seriously, in the hopes they won't, so they arent upset by him - which many coaches have been. i guess its a double-edged sword. i honestly have thought about it, and know no nice way to say hey, totally ignore this guy, he does this to everyone, so dont let it bother you. but, i will certainly think about what you said, there could very well be a better way. actually now that i say it, site mail seems the obvious solution...

that said, i think that colonels does not come here looking for a normal discussion, with legitimate questions he is looking for logical answers to. but a lot of other coaches do. i absolutely do think its a lot worse to shoot arrows at one of those guys, than to shoot indirect arrows at colonels. i'd say the same for the old versions of colonels, guys who eventually came around, like fury, tmac, etc... and i never said 1 negative thing to either of them when they decided to become normal human beings. i also have probably given colonels more chances at a rational discussion than any coach in HD, in fact, im quite sure of it, so i guess i just felt like i owed him nothing at this point. but the possible perception from other coaches, that DOES matter. so you have a point there. however - that in no way justifies the thread after thread where an innocent coach comes, asks a question, and people tell him how stupid he is for this reason or that. not even a little bit. not saying people doing that justifies my responses to colonels, please don't take it that way, but i think what really turns someone off is when they come and ask a question, and instead, hear why they are stupid for asking that question or doing whatever it is the topic of that thread is. shooting an arrow at the coach who calls the poster stupid, by my usual way of thinking, is supporting the original poster, although im sure its not the best way to do it. so like i said, i WILL think about what you said. but i do strongly feel more users are chased off these forums than not, and i wish all coaches, yourself included, would try to be a little nicer to someone asking a legitimate question. i should probably be nicer to coaches who ARENT trying to ask a legitimate question, but i guess to me that is clearly a goal that comes after not abusing the good ones. and although i don't condone it, im not referring to the threads where a coach seemingly doesn't want to hear anyone, when they just plainly ignore every body who is trying to help them and act like a dick to the people who were legitimately taking their time to help the person, with no snide remarks or anything. that is a lot more understandable, and that happens on ALL the forums ive ever seen. what i dont always see, is a person with totally good intentions, looking for help, who just gets railed on. ive never seen a forum as bad as this one in that regard, although i certainly havent went looking :)