Posted by colonels19 on 6/6/2012 12:42:00 PM (view original):
I pretty much agree with that, if the only person you're hurting is yourself and you aren't colluding with anyone to do anything illegal, then what's the big deal...who are you to tell anyone how they should coach their team?

Posted by tkimble on 6/6/2012 12:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by colonels19 on 6/6/2012 12:42:00 PM (view original):
I pretty much agree with that, if the only person you're hurting is yourself and you aren't colluding with anyone to do anything illegal, then what's the big deal...who are you to tell anyone how they should coach their team?

1) you're not hurting only yourself, you're hurting the coach who would have made the NT as the last team in.  
2) you are doing something illegal by throwing a game to increase the chances another team makes the NT.

Posted by emy1013 on 6/6/2012 3:26:00 AM (view original):
It's funny actually.  I got a sitemail a few weeks ago from a coach who has posted in this thread (not you Gill).  He referred to me as a douche in his opening line.  Now I see him in this thread actually supporting the idea of intentionally throwing a game (nope, not you either Colonels).  Even has the nerve, the gall, the audacity to try to play lawyer and find a loophole in the TOS so he can justify cheating by throwing a game.  And I'm a douche?  Damn, the irony........

Posted by phillyboy108 on 6/6/2012 12:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tkimble on 6/6/2012 12:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by colonels19 on 6/6/2012 12:42:00 PM (view original):
I pretty much agree with that, if the only person you're hurting is yourself and you aren't colluding with anyone to do anything illegal, then what's the big deal...who are you to tell anyone how they should coach their team?

1) you're not hurting only yourself, you're hurting the coach who would have made the NT as the last team in.  
2) you are doing something illegal by throwing a game to increase the chances another team makes the NT.

agreed tkimble

Posted by emy1013 on 6/6/2012 4:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by phillyboy108 on 6/5/2012 6:58:00 PM (view original):
Nevermind 100% not throwing game didnt know about this dahsdebater and dacj. I dont want to have my teams stripped. I m also probale going to get monitored by WIS too ..... great

I can't believe you would even suggest it in the first place.  Did it not cross your mind that this was cheating, that something wasn't right with doing this?  You won't get your teams stripped from you, nor your ID's banned, don't worry about that.  But don't be surprised if anyone who reads this thread calls you out on any questionable moves you might make in the future.  Like it or not, the perception some people will now have of you is that you'll consider breaking the rules when it benefits you in some way.  Sorry, but that's just the reality of it.

Glad you came to your senses before you DID do something stupid though.  Now go beat that Sim team, get the automatic bid to the NT, and start gameplanning for your first round NT game.  Good luck and maybe you can pull an upset or three!

Posted by colonels19 on 6/6/2012 1:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by phillyboy108 on 6/6/2012 12:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tkimble on 6/6/2012 12:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by colonels19 on 6/6/2012 12:42:00 PM (view original):
I pretty much agree with that, if the only person you're hurting is yourself and you aren't colluding with anyone to do anything illegal, then what's the big deal...who are you to tell anyone how they should coach their team?

1) you're not hurting only yourself, you're hurting the coach who would have made the NT as the last team in.  
2) you are doing something illegal by throwing a game to increase the chances another team makes the NT.

agreed tkimble

Talking more about the throwing the entire season...the 0-162 and 0-26 scenarios, rather than letting an undeserving team get into the NT due to a thrown CT game, obviously that screws a deserving team out of a spot.

Posted by yanks250125 on 6/6/2012 12:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 6/6/2012 5:30:00 AM (view original):

Posted by yanks250125 on 6/5/2012 7:58:00 PM (view original):
i guess i'll get busted for restoring the eligibility of my redshirt guy because i knew i wasn't going to stay at that school in the following season?  Those fair play guidelines are stupid.  This is "WHAT IF" sports, not an organization that gets penalized for "cheating".  Remember we pay to play, not the other way around.  I several times went 0-162 in MLB sim leagues to see what would happen "if" a team tried to get perfect gamed every time.  I think its a travesty to a site like this to put limitations on teams that pay to play.  If i want to throw the CT game, I should be allowed to

Other people also pay to play ... they deserve that you not be a cheater.

what part of any of that is cheating?

Posted by isack24 on 6/6/2012 10:48:00 AM (view original):

Posted by emy1013 on 6/6/2012 3:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tbird9423 on 6/5/2012 7:46:00 PM (view original):
Hi all-- I actually thought about this a couple times when I was the team that was going to lose the CT game-- I don't see where it ever says it is illegal to throw a game, but I think making that agreement with another user is what makes that illegal.  If the "other team" is sim controlled, even more ambiguity there but I do see situations where it might make sense to throw a game for seeding purposes or playing time for younger players, especially if you know your team doesn't have a chance to win it all.  I think we would all agree this happens in rl from time to time.
  Dahs-- I think your quotation actually supports my thoughts but I can tell there is an unwritten rule against throwing games at all-  would be interested to hear WIS stance on this. 

WIS' stance wouldn't be interesting at all.  Their stance would be black and white:  throwing games is against the rules, period.  In fact, this very scenario came up about seven and a half years ago, when two D3 coaches made the mistake of broadcasting the fact that they were throwing a CT game in order for their conference to get an additional team into the NT.  Needless to say, it did NOT go over well.  Those two guys are still coaching, so I won't reveal their names (some of the older coaches here will probably remember the incident, if they want to put that info out there, that's up to them, but I'm not).  After reading some of your posts in other threads, I've gotta admit, I'm not surprised at all that you'd consider doing this or think that the TOS are unclear about whether this is okay to do or not.  Says a lot about your character and integrity.  Hey, you like trying to playing lawyer here, you're not one in real life, are you?

I'm with Dahs also, I don't agree that this happens in real life "from time to time".  Some players "do" attempt to throw games in real life, yes.  It's called point shaving.  It's also highly illegal.  Comes with possible prison time if found guilty.  Do coaches play their younger players when a season is deemed to be lost?  Sure they do, but they don't start using that strategy in the CT.  To try to play all of your best players all season and then turn around and play all your young guys in a CT Championship game and attempt to justify that by saying that you're getting them playing time is an insult to anyone's intelligence.  You don't have to come right out and say you're cheating for people to know you're cheating.  And you said that I was a douche?  Pot meet kettle. 

For what it's worth, I think those who say it isn't a violation of the fair play guidelines are correct in a legal sense.  The first rule of construction in any written document is that if the langauge is claer and unambiguous, you don't look to the "intent," because the intent is presumably gleaned from the unambiguous written language.  These guidelines are unambiguous.  It requires collusion between "two or more users." 

My guess is that the creators of the game never considered the possibility that anyone would WANT to lose to a crappy sim.

Of course, whether it's "legal" isn't the issue, and strict interpretation doesn't have much place outside of the courts.  We can all use common sense and understand that it was WIS' intent to ban throwing games.

Posted by colonels19 on 6/6/2012 1:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by yanks250125 on 6/6/2012 12:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 6/6/2012 5:30:00 AM (view original):

Posted by yanks250125 on 6/5/2012 7:58:00 PM (view original):
i guess i'll get busted for restoring the eligibility of my redshirt guy because i knew i wasn't going to stay at that school in the following season?  Those fair play guidelines are stupid.  This is "WHAT IF" sports, not an organization that gets penalized for "cheating".  Remember we pay to play, not the other way around.  I several times went 0-162 in MLB sim leagues to see what would happen "if" a team tried to get perfect gamed every time.  I think its a travesty to a site like this to put limitations on teams that pay to play.  If i want to throw the CT game, I should be allowed to

Other people also pay to play ... they deserve that you not be a cheater.

what part of any of that is cheating?

The 0-162 reference...

Posted by gillispie1 on 6/6/2012 1:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by isack24 on 6/6/2012 10:48:00 AM (view original):

Posted by emy1013 on 6/6/2012 3:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tbird9423 on 6/5/2012 7:46:00 PM (view original):
Hi all-- I actually thought about this a couple times when I was the team that was going to lose the CT game-- I don't see where it ever says it is illegal to throw a game, but I think making that agreement with another user is what makes that illegal.  If the "other team" is sim controlled, even more ambiguity there but I do see situations where it might make sense to throw a game for seeding purposes or playing time for younger players, especially if you know your team doesn't have a chance to win it all.  I think we would all agree this happens in rl from time to time.
  Dahs-- I think your quotation actually supports my thoughts but I can tell there is an unwritten rule against throwing games at all-  would be interested to hear WIS stance on this. 

WIS' stance wouldn't be interesting at all.  Their stance would be black and white:  throwing games is against the rules, period.  In fact, this very scenario came up about seven and a half years ago, when two D3 coaches made the mistake of broadcasting the fact that they were throwing a CT game in order for their conference to get an additional team into the NT.  Needless to say, it did NOT go over well.  Those two guys are still coaching, so I won't reveal their names (some of the older coaches here will probably remember the incident, if they want to put that info out there, that's up to them, but I'm not).  After reading some of your posts in other threads, I've gotta admit, I'm not surprised at all that you'd consider doing this or think that the TOS are unclear about whether this is okay to do or not.  Says a lot about your character and integrity.  Hey, you like trying to playing lawyer here, you're not one in real life, are you?

I'm with Dahs also, I don't agree that this happens in real life "from time to time".  Some players "do" attempt to throw games in real life, yes.  It's called point shaving.  It's also highly illegal.  Comes with possible prison time if found guilty.  Do coaches play their younger players when a season is deemed to be lost?  Sure they do, but they don't start using that strategy in the CT.  To try to play all of your best players all season and then turn around and play all your young guys in a CT Championship game and attempt to justify that by saying that you're getting them playing time is an insult to anyone's intelligence.  You don't have to come right out and say you're cheating for people to know you're cheating.  And you said that I was a douche?  Pot meet kettle. 

For what it's worth, I think those who say it isn't a violation of the fair play guidelines are correct in a legal sense.  The first rule of construction in any written document is that if the langauge is claer and unambiguous, you don't look to the "intent," because the intent is presumably gleaned from the unambiguous written language.  These guidelines are unambiguous.  It requires collusion between "two or more users." 

My guess is that the creators of the game never considered the possibility that anyone would WANT to lose to a crappy sim.

Of course, whether it's "legal" isn't the issue, and strict interpretation doesn't have much place outside of the courts.  We can all use common sense and understand that it was WIS' intent to ban throwing games.

"For what it's worth, I think those who say it isn't a violation of the fair play guidelines are correct in a legal sense."

as i pointed out earlier, i would argue its worth nothing (no offense). of course these fair play guide lines are not a quality legal contract. to try to read them as such is foolish, in my opinion. the game creators tried to address a growing problem, at a time when people were "drafting" players (a ring of top prestige schools, doling out players amongst themselves, with no battles). i for one think they did a decent job. they made it ABUNDANTLY clear that the severe acts of cheating were cheating. i personally think they made it fairly clear about some of these smaller acts of cheating, but of course, there is some grey area remaining, as was pointed out with the agreement between 2 coaches (where 1 is a sim, you can't make an agreement). but clearly, the game creator did not want us throwing game, or they would not have cited it specifically. and again, if the goal is to realistically and honestly try to play fairly, you have to place some weight on the observation that seble has repeatedly come out and said things were not allowed, when it was a grey area like this - and that he has NOT done the opposite.

Posted by gillispie1 on 6/6/2012 1:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by emy1013 on 6/6/2012 3:26:00 AM (view original):
It's funny actually.  I got a sitemail a few weeks ago from a coach who has posted in this thread (not you Gill).  He referred to me as a douche in his opening line.  Now I see him in this thread actually supporting the idea of intentionally throwing a game (nope, not you either Colonels).  Even has the nerve, the gall, the audacity to try to play lawyer and find a loophole in the TOS so he can justify cheating by throwing a game.  And I'm a douche?  Damn, the irony........

emy, what is funny is that when you start to talk about a coach in this thread, who sitemailed you recently, calling you a douche in his opening line - you have to clarify which two of the forty or so coaches who posted, you ARENT referring too ;) i mean seriously emy, how many coaches out there sitemail you specifically to call you a douche?  (not actually serious, just comes across funny, at least to me)

Posted by girt25 on 6/6/2012 9:23:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tbird9423 on 6/5/2012 7:46:00 PM (view original):
Hi all-- I actually thought about this a couple times when I was the team that was going to lose the CT game-- I don't see where it ever says it is illegal to throw a game, but I think making that agreement with another user is what makes that illegal.  If the "other team" is sim controlled, even more ambiguity there but I do see situations where it might make sense to throw a game for seeding purposes or playing time for younger players, especially if you know your team doesn't have a chance to win it all.  I think we would all agree this happens in rl from time to time.
  Dahs-- I think your quotation actually supports my thoughts but I can tell there is an unwritten rule against throwing games at all-  would be interested to hear WIS stance on this. 

You can't be serious. Can you?

Glad to see someone else agrees with me.  Careful though Daalt, if he doesn't like what you have to say, you'll get a really "nice" sitemail where you'll most likely be referred to as some sort of feminine hygiene product.  Of course, my sitemail back to him would have been construed as being much harsher in nature and probably shouldn't have been read by younger eyes.  Suggested that he do things to himself that are pretty much anatomically impossible (unless your last name happens to be Holmes.  Then....maybe).   Dude doesn't like being disagreed with and most certainly can't take the first bit of criticism.  He does seem to have some kind of infatuation with "polls" though.  Strange. 

Man,  I really should have saved that sitemail and posted it here, you guys would have gotten a kick out of how totally "out there" some people can be.  Scary thing is, there are people all over the place just like this.  Alas, deleted it, never to be retrieved again.  Have a great day.

Reading these posts, one thought kept coming to mind that was touched upon by Girt. I took over a team two seasons ago now that I had to rebuild. I have another id SuperSloth33, which has a team in Iba (Wisconsin, Eau Claire) that when I took it over also two seasons ago now, was in serious disrepair. I even posted on these boards, asking if I would win a game that season. I ended up going 2-26 I believe, so saved the goose egg.

Anyway, to get back to my point, it was suggested to me several times by several people, either in sitemails, or posted as responses to other forum topics I came across, that since I was taking my lumps anyway, it would be best to build up the freshman by starting them over more established upperclassmen... I believe some of you can see where I'm going with this. How can playing inferior players to build them up for future seasons, thus severely hampering your team's chances to win, not count as collusion?????????

By many of your own definitions, that falls under collusion.