Guards Dominate?! Feedback please! Topic

Trentonjoe
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Posted by digitalv on 6/11/2012 8:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 6/11/2012 1:05:00 PM (view original):
I haven't seen a team start a G at PF.   I see G's at SF all the time and I salivate if I see the <10 in REB. 
www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Schedule.aspx
Well, that team isn't very good.
6/12/2012 5:15 PM
bvb24
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I would say rebounding is the most frustrating part of the game to me.  That's what allows guards to play out of position.  It's pretty common to see a guard or sf at the 3 with 20-40 rebounding pulling in 6 rebounds in a game while a center with 90+ rebounding gets 5 in the same game.  I'm not saying this should never happen but it should be pretty rare. 
6/12/2012 6:03 PM
Trentonjoe
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I checked the conference leader boards for my three teams (one in each Division)....there was only 1 guard in the top 25, combined.   It was a stud from Syracuse with an 81 REB and a OVR of 960+.

 I don't evidence of guards rebounding well.
6/12/2012 6:41 PM
dahsdebater
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I don't think the fact that no guards are in the top 25 in rebounding is anything remotely close to evidence that guards can't rebound adequately, and I'm pretty sure you know that.  If you're playing a guard at PF you're pretty much assuming you're probably going to lose the rebounding battle but hoping to keep it close enough that you make up for it with turnovers.  The guy I linked earlier is grabbing over 6 per game this season.  That's nowhere near top 25, but you can easily live with that from your PF.  Even a lesser rebounder with more speed can often average 3.5-5 in this game.  That's plenty if your team does other things well and you have a good-rebounding C and/or wings.
6/12/2012 7:03 PM
Trentonjoe
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I am not sure what we are debating....


Is playing a four guards  a viable strategy?  I think so, I think you can be good but not great using this.

Is the optimal strategy?  I don't think so, although someone claimed a team won a NC doing this.

Should it be an useable  strategy?  Yeah, I think so.   I see no reason why you should be able to run a 4 guard, one post player line up.


6/12/2012 8:15 PM (edited)
zbrent716
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Posted by dahsdebater on 6/12/2012 7:03:00 PM (view original):
I don't think the fact that no guards are in the top 25 in rebounding is anything remotely close to evidence that guards can't rebound adequately, and I'm pretty sure you know that.  If you're playing a guard at PF you're pretty much assuming you're probably going to lose the rebounding battle but hoping to keep it close enough that you make up for it with turnovers.  The guy I linked earlier is grabbing over 6 per game this season.  That's nowhere near top 25, but you can easily live with that from your PF.  Even a lesser rebounder with more speed can often average 3.5-5 in this game.  That's plenty if your team does other things well and you have a good-rebounding C and/or wings.
Despite my personal opinion about how basketball should be played, I'm slowly coming to accept the fact that rebounding is a relatively easy rating to almost punt (at least at D3) and still enjoy a great deal of success.

Check out the #1 rated team in Tark D3 as an example - Virginia Wesleyan. They are out-rebeounding opponents 40.1 to 37.5. But, of course, they also have far more opportunities for defensive boards, hitting 47% of their shots compared to 40% for the opposition. What stands out, though, is that VW is also averaging more *offensive* rebounds - despite shooting a higher percentage. It is doing all of this without any player rated above a 62 in rebounding. Their leading rebounder is a "SG" (by WhatIf position only) with a 76 Ath and 58 rebounding. The starting lineup of this 18-1 team has Reb ratings of 13-4-29-58-62.
6/13/2012 9:24 AM
isack24
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High-level ath/spd/stam in the press almost guarantees you high-level success in D3, even without any other ratings.  I've been annoyed y this for years.  Of course, none of my teams run press...
6/13/2012 9:55 AM
stewdog
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A couple points...
1) In Iba D1 a few seasons back, a team who ONLY scored from the outside (4 guards) won the national championship despite virtually no inside presence. NO ONE other than PG's had over 3 ppg. Teams played him +5 and still lost. This would NEVER happen in real life. Right?!
* The point here is that the +3, +5 should effect outside shooting more. It really doesn't.

2) In Iba THIS year (again D1), the national championship was won by another team that started 4 guards (not one was over 6'2"). This would also never happen. Was Missouri good this past year? Was Villinova good with Foy, etc? YES... but neither made it past the Elite 8 when they were exposed by teams with depth, good guard defense, etc.
* My point here is that guard heavy teams WILL win in real life... but they will not consistenly win in real life against good perimeter defenses or long athletic types. They will get posted up repeatedly, out-rebounded, etc. On THIS game, however, a 4 PG lineup can win the D1 national championship 2 out of 3 years. This needs to be adjusted. I think there needs to be a penalty for playing a PG at PF. Rebounding needs to matter more. (This year, the 4 PG team out-rebounded their opponents throughout the year. Really?! In the final 4- they outrebounded their MUCH bigger opponent by 6 & only lost the reb battle by 1 in the finals. Their reb numbers for the 4 starters? 20, 25, 28, 40, and 93. the teams they played were significantly higher and ALL great athletes).

Changes??? out of position penalty? More of an emphasis on rebounding on REB than speed? +5 actually meaning something? 

thoughts?!
6/13/2012 10:04 AM
ike1024
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The out-of-position penalty was dumb when it existed before.  WIS creates positions, even when they're dumb.  There's no reason we should have to suffered for bad position creation.

But yes to reb meaning more. 

6/13/2012 10:27 AM
zbrent716
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Posted by ike1024 on 6/13/2012 10:27:00 AM (view original):

The out-of-position penalty was dumb when it existed before.  WIS creates positions, even when they're dumb.  There's no reason we should have to suffered for bad position creation.

But yes to reb meaning more. 

I agree - there should be no out of position penalty. What WIS calls a PG often isn't at all. What might be useful for people who get hung up on the "PG" aspect is to allow us to set positions, the same way WIS allows in HBD.

As far as results, they should only be based on the ratings - but those ratings don't seem to be in balance right now (at least at the D3 level, which is all I can really speak to).
6/13/2012 11:30 AM
Trentonjoe
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" Their leading rebounder is a "SG" (by WhatIf position only) with a 76 Ath and 58 rebounding."

You know, not for nothing, but this guy should be a good rebounder.

If he was a 58 ATH and 76 REB  he would probably be just as good (probably better, right?)
6/13/2012 11:44 AM
zbrent716
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Posted by Trentonjoe on 6/13/2012 11:44:00 AM (view original):
" Their leading rebounder is a "SG" (by WhatIf position only) with a 76 Ath and 58 rebounding."

You know, not for nothing, but this guy should be a good rebounder.

If he was a 58 ATH and 76 REB  he would probably be just as good (probably better, right?)
Would he be a better rebounder at 58 ATH and 76 REB? I'm not as sure of that as you seem to be.

I think he should be a good rebounder for a guard, but not an especially good one for a post player (which is where he plays) and when he is the most effective rebounder on a team ranked #1... well, the REB rating doesn't seem to be of (as) much importance (as it perhaps should be). 
6/13/2012 12:07 PM
jack_duck
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Posted by zbrent716 on 6/13/2012 12:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 6/13/2012 11:44:00 AM (view original):
" Their leading rebounder is a "SG" (by WhatIf position only) with a 76 Ath and 58 rebounding."

You know, not for nothing, but this guy should be a good rebounder.

If he was a 58 ATH and 76 REB  he would probably be just as good (probably better, right?)
Would he be a better rebounder at 58 ATH and 76 REB? I'm not as sure of that as you seem to be.

I think he should be a good rebounder for a guard, but not an especially good one for a post player (which is where he plays) and when he is the most effective rebounder on a team ranked #1... well, the REB rating doesn't seem to be of (as) much importance (as it perhaps should be). 
They're ranked #1, but they certainly aren't #1 in rebounding. Other top 50 teams usually out-rebound them (see esp. the Greensboro game).

But the point is, he's pulling in 6.7 rebounds of the team's 39.6.  Is that really so super impressive?  If he was a 6'9" PF with the same ratings, would you blink an eye?

I think the takeaway here is just that height and position are window-dressing and can be ignored.
6/13/2012 2:12 PM
gvsujulius
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Here is my team in D3 Tark http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Stats.aspx?tid=12504

I have a SF with 53 rebounding playing PF and I have never viewed rebounding as a huge key and I have had quite a bit of success in D3 with this team.

6/13/2012 2:24 PM
zbrent716
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Posted by jack_duck on 6/13/2012 2:12:00 PM (view original):
Posted by zbrent716 on 6/13/2012 12:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 6/13/2012 11:44:00 AM (view original):
" Their leading rebounder is a "SG" (by WhatIf position only) with a 76 Ath and 58 rebounding."

You know, not for nothing, but this guy should be a good rebounder.

If he was a 58 ATH and 76 REB  he would probably be just as good (probably better, right?)
Would he be a better rebounder at 58 ATH and 76 REB? I'm not as sure of that as you seem to be.

I think he should be a good rebounder for a guard, but not an especially good one for a post player (which is where he plays) and when he is the most effective rebounder on a team ranked #1... well, the REB rating doesn't seem to be of (as) much importance (as it perhaps should be). 
They're ranked #1, but they certainly aren't #1 in rebounding. Other top 50 teams usually out-rebound them (see esp. the Greensboro game).

But the point is, he's pulling in 6.7 rebounds of the team's 39.6.  Is that really so super impressive?  If he was a 6'9" PF with the same ratings, would you blink an eye?

I think the takeaway here is just that height and position are window-dressing and can be ignored.
I think most people with a reasonable amount of experience, or who have read much of the forum, know that height (and weight) and WIS-assigned position are just window dressing and can be ignored.

What the takeaway has been for me, and I'd resisted it for many seasons, it that - even for bigs - you can go with middling-at-best rebounding ratings and not suffer much at all, provided you have very good athleticism. 
6/13/2012 4:22 PM (edited)
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