Posted by jack_duck on 6/13/2012 2:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zbrent716 on 6/13/2012 12:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 6/13/2012 11:44:00 AM (view original):
" Their leading rebounder is a "SG" (by WhatIf position only) with a 76 Ath and 58 rebounding."

You know, not for nothing, but this guy should be a good rebounder.

If he was a 58 ATH and 76 REB  he would probably be just as good (probably better, right?)

Would he be a better rebounder at 58 ATH and 76 REB? I'm not as sure of that as you seem to be.

I think he should be a good rebounder for a guard, but not an especially good one for a post player (which is where he plays) and when he is the most effective rebounder on a team ranked #1... well, the REB rating doesn't seem to be of (as) much importance (as it perhaps should be). 

They're ranked #1, but they certainly aren't #1 in rebounding. Other top 50 teams usually out-rebound them (see esp. the Greensboro game).

But the point is, he's pulling in 6.7 rebounds of the team's 39.6.  Is that really so super impressive?  If he was a 6'9" PF with the same ratings, would you blink an eye?

I think the takeaway here is just that height and position are window-dressing and can be ignored.

We all know, or should know, that height and weight mean nothing outside the ratings.

If a guy has a 76 ATH, he has a 76 ATH.  If he has 58 REB, the he has 58 REB.

The reason why he has those numbers might have been based on his size or his technique, etc.

If a guy is 6'6" and has an 85 in REB, well that would be because he understands positioning and leverage (ie Charles Barkley).

If a guy is 7'2" and has an 85 REB, that might be because of his size.

There are many things that impact REB ... and they need a way to compare one player to another ... so we have the attributes.  85 REB is 85 REB ... regardless of why.

Don't get hung up on High School position ... which is really what is being shown.  Maybe he was the best ball hander on his high school team so his high school is PG, but he should be a PF in college.

It is all about the numbers.

During his college career, Barkley played the center position, despite being shorter than the average center. His height, officially listed as 6 ft 6 in (1.98 m), is stated as 6 ft 4 in (1.93 m) in his book, I May Be Wrong but I Doubt It. He became a member of Auburn's All-Century team and still holds the Auburn record for career field goal percentage with 62.6%.^[9] He received numerous awards, including Southeastern Conference (SEC) Player of the Year (1984), three All-SEC selections and one Second Team All-American selection.^[10] Later, Barkley was named the SEC Player of the Decade for the 1980s by the Birmingham Post-Herald.^[9]

I think zbrent's problem is less with the one player and more with the fact that a team with terrible reb ratings is outrebounding its opponents.

Posted by zbrent716 on 6/13/2012 9:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 6/12/2012 7:03:00 PM (view original):
I don't think the fact that no guards are in the top 25 in rebounding is anything remotely close to evidence that guards can't rebound adequately, and I'm pretty sure you know that.  If you're playing a guard at PF you're pretty much assuming you're probably going to lose the rebounding battle but hoping to keep it close enough that you make up for it with turnovers.  The guy I linked earlier is grabbing over 6 per game this season.  That's nowhere near top 25, but you can easily live with that from your PF.  Even a lesser rebounder with more speed can often average 3.5-5 in this game.  That's plenty if your team does other things well and you have a good-rebounding C and/or wings.

Despite my personal opinion about how basketball should be played, I'm slowly coming to accept the fact that rebounding is a relatively easy rating to almost punt (at least at D3) and still enjoy a great deal of success.

Check out the #1 rated team in Tark D3 as an example - Virginia Wesleyan. They are out-rebeounding opponents 40.1 to 37.5. But, of course, they also have far more opportunities for defensive boards, hitting 47% of their shots compared to 40% for the opposition. What stands out, though, is that VW is also averaging more *offensive* rebounds - despite shooting a higher percentage. It is doing all of this without any player rated above a 62 in rebounding. Their leading rebounder is a "SG" (by WhatIf position only) with a 76 Ath and 58 rebounding. The starting lineup of this 18-1 team has Reb ratings of 13-4-29-58-62.

Look what happens when they play a team with some rebounding.

Posted by tkimble on 6/13/2012 5:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zbrent716 on 6/13/2012 9:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 6/12/2012 7:03:00 PM (view original):
I don't think the fact that no guards are in the top 25 in rebounding is anything remotely close to evidence that guards can't rebound adequately, and I'm pretty sure you know that.  If you're playing a guard at PF you're pretty much assuming you're probably going to lose the rebounding battle but hoping to keep it close enough that you make up for it with turnovers.  The guy I linked earlier is grabbing over 6 per game this season.  That's nowhere near top 25, but you can easily live with that from your PF.  Even a lesser rebounder with more speed can often average 3.5-5 in this game.  That's plenty if your team does other things well and you have a good-rebounding C and/or wings.

Despite my personal opinion about how basketball should be played, I'm slowly coming to accept the fact that rebounding is a relatively easy rating to almost punt (at least at D3) and still enjoy a great deal of success.

Check out the #1 rated team in Tark D3 as an example - Virginia Wesleyan. They are out-rebeounding opponents 40.1 to 37.5. But, of course, they also have far more opportunities for defensive boards, hitting 47% of their shots compared to 40% for the opposition. What stands out, though, is that VW is also averaging more *offensive* rebounds - despite shooting a higher percentage. It is doing all of this without any player rated above a 62 in rebounding. Their leading rebounder is a "SG" (by WhatIf position only) with a 76 Ath and 58 rebounding. The starting lineup of this 18-1 team has Reb ratings of 13-4-29-58-62.

Look what happens when they play a team with some rebounding.

tkimble, I know this might be pimping you own team somewhat (and it's deserved) but - respectfully - you don't have "some rebounding". Your starting 4 & 5 have 64 Ath and 90 Reb (PF) and 70 Ath and 99 Reb (C). First big man off the bench is 61 Ath and 90 Reb. 

It shouldn't take (arguably) the best rebounding D3 team in the country to expose that weakness. The team with just very good or excellent (instead of the very best) should be able to expose it as well.

Posted by isack24 on 6/13/2012 4:52:00 PM (view original):
I think zbrent's problem is less with the one player and more with the fact that a team with terrible reb ratings is outrebounding its opponents.

And this is correct. The one guy was mentioned specifically because he is the leading rebounder on the team, but the team as a whole is extremely weak at rebounding.

Posted by zbrent716 on 6/13/2012 7:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tkimble on 6/13/2012 5:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zbrent716 on 6/13/2012 9:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 6/12/2012 7:03:00 PM (view original):
I don't think the fact that no guards are in the top 25 in rebounding is anything remotely close to evidence that guards can't rebound adequately, and I'm pretty sure you know that.  If you're playing a guard at PF you're pretty much assuming you're probably going to lose the rebounding battle but hoping to keep it close enough that you make up for it with turnovers.  The guy I linked earlier is grabbing over 6 per game this season.  That's nowhere near top 25, but you can easily live with that from your PF.  Even a lesser rebounder with more speed can often average 3.5-5 in this game.  That's plenty if your team does other things well and you have a good-rebounding C and/or wings.

Despite my personal opinion about how basketball should be played, I'm slowly coming to accept the fact that rebounding is a relatively easy rating to almost punt (at least at D3) and still enjoy a great deal of success.

Check out the #1 rated team in Tark D3 as an example - Virginia Wesleyan. They are out-rebeounding opponents 40.1 to 37.5. But, of course, they also have far more opportunities for defensive boards, hitting 47% of their shots compared to 40% for the opposition. What stands out, though, is that VW is also averaging more *offensive* rebounds - despite shooting a higher percentage. It is doing all of this without any player rated above a 62 in rebounding. Their leading rebounder is a "SG" (by WhatIf position only) with a 76 Ath and 58 rebounding. The starting lineup of this 18-1 team has Reb ratings of 13-4-29-58-62.

Look what happens when they play a team with some rebounding.

tkimble, I know this might be pimping you own team somewhat (and it's deserved) but - respectfully - you don't have "some rebounding". Your starting 4 & 5 have 64 Ath and 90 Reb (PF) and 70 Ath and 99 Reb (C). First big man off the bench is 61 Ath and 90 Reb. 

It shouldn't take (arguably) the best rebounding D3 team in the country to expose that weakness. The team with just very good or excellent (instead of the very best) should be able to expose it as well.

Oh I was totally pimping my own team and rubbing this win in Mike's face because I know he'll read this.

Posted by tkimble on 6/13/2012 7:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zbrent716 on 6/13/2012 7:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tkimble on 6/13/2012 5:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zbrent716 on 6/13/2012 9:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 6/12/2012 7:03:00 PM (view original):
I don't think the fact that no guards are in the top 25 in rebounding is anything remotely close to evidence that guards can't rebound adequately, and I'm pretty sure you know that.  If you're playing a guard at PF you're pretty much assuming you're probably going to lose the rebounding battle but hoping to keep it close enough that you make up for it with turnovers.  The guy I linked earlier is grabbing over 6 per game this season.  That's nowhere near top 25, but you can easily live with that from your PF.  Even a lesser rebounder with more speed can often average 3.5-5 in this game.  That's plenty if your team does other things well and you have a good-rebounding C and/or wings.

Despite my personal opinion about how basketball should be played, I'm slowly coming to accept the fact that rebounding is a relatively easy rating to almost punt (at least at D3) and still enjoy a great deal of success.

Check out the #1 rated team in Tark D3 as an example - Virginia Wesleyan. They are out-rebeounding opponents 40.1 to 37.5. But, of course, they also have far more opportunities for defensive boards, hitting 47% of their shots compared to 40% for the opposition. What stands out, though, is that VW is also averaging more *offensive* rebounds - despite shooting a higher percentage. It is doing all of this without any player rated above a 62 in rebounding. Their leading rebounder is a "SG" (by WhatIf position only) with a 76 Ath and 58 rebounding. The starting lineup of this 18-1 team has Reb ratings of 13-4-29-58-62.

Look what happens when they play a team with some rebounding.

tkimble, I know this might be pimping you own team somewhat (and it's deserved) but - respectfully - you don't have "some rebounding". Your starting 4 & 5 have 64 Ath and 90 Reb (PF) and 70 Ath and 99 Reb (C). First big man off the bench is 61 Ath and 90 Reb. 

It shouldn't take (arguably) the best rebounding D3 team in the country to expose that weakness. The team with just very good or excellent (instead of the very best) should be able to expose it as well.

Oh I was totally pimping my own team and rubbing this win in Mike's face because I know he'll read this.

Bold move giving him bulletin board material and inviting the forum jinx for the 6/15/12am rematch at his place.!

Regular season over, conference tournament play starting in Tark. The top 3 teams (by NT projections) are Virginia Wesleyan, Rhodes, and Denison.

Those top three teams - combined - have one player with a rebounding rating over 66 (an 82 on Rhodes). 

And least surprising...they all run press.