that's a helluva question...I'm not sure if the WE hit will be the same or not. That language indicates it ought to be, but somehow I'm nervous about if that got coded...let us know how it works out...

I don't see a point of even trying it. The difference isn't going to make any impact one way or another

I agree that it's not worth the risk if there's any uncertainty.  The upside is you gain maybe 1-2 points that, otherwise, would be fractions of points, right?

If I was to have him play to fatigue in the 2 exhibitions, I'd expect considerably more than 1-2 points of improvement.

It'd also be nice to see whether it got coded correctly (assuming I am reading it correctly).

I meant 1-2 more than you would get from just the practice without PT, not a gross 1-2.  I may or may not be full of crap.

12:48 PM - Redshirt retracted, WE back to 63. He will play in Exhibition #1.

I thought exhibition PT doesn't count toward improvement; playing 30min v player 0 lead to the same result. 

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/3/2012 1:16:00 PM (view original):
I thought exhibition PT doesn't count toward improvement; playing 30min v player 0 lead to the same result. 

I have no official word, but my anecdotal evidence strongly suggests this is not the case. I often play my new guys heavy minutes in exhibitions and usually see (what seem to be) significant benefits from it. 

I suppose it is possible that they just jump more those 2 games than any other two because they are new and so have more growth to experience, but it certainly seems to be tied to the increased PT.

Posted by zbrent716 on 7/3/2012 12:49:00 PM (view original):
12:48 PM - Redshirt retracted, WE back to 63. He will play in Exhibition #1.

I redshirted a player with a WE of 30, went down to 22 on the first try. Retried, then went down to 4, so you might get an undesired result.

I am pretty sure that Seble indicated in the forums that the downward spiral for WE on continued redshirt attempts would not cease.

Heard back from CS. While he will stay unhappy with subsequent redshirt attempts, the level of WE drop can still spiral further down.

7/3/2012 1:39 PM	Customer Support
No, his work ethic may drop even further the second time. The only thing that sticks is the actual high-level response (i.e. accept or reject).

CS has also indicated that the language in the Knowledge Base will be clarified to reflect this additional risk.

The new RS Logic is terrible, awful, terrible, bad, no good, not working. Now that I've got that off my chest, maybe I should be more sensible and explain my thoughts. Under the old system I redshirted 3 players in 3 seasons. One a Frosh who was NOT told during recruiting. He took it on the first try after the exhibition games after he got to see our sqaud. The other 2 both frosh going to soph. One took it the 2nd try. One took it the third.

Results under the new system. Three attempts, no redshirts. One a freshman. My 5th and last guard with the lowest rating on the team. He went beserk with the stupid messages we have now and WE dropped badly. I had to reinstate him. He's barely playing and his is progressing very slowly. How does that help him or the team? Two were Sophs going to Juniors. They were the 4th & 5th rated bigs of six on the team. The 6th had already been RS under the old system. They were the 6th & 7th rated on a 10 man roster. As said, 1 RS already. the other 2 are guards on a 3 guard roster, so you can't possibly RS them. There WE dropped 45-55 points. One of them already had a WE drop last season because he was the last man so he's already lost one season. The perfect RS prospect in real life. Since it was an all underclass, he's going to see very little time this season. Had he reshirted, he had the potential to be a 700 guy and start in his career. Now he's got no chance. How is that good for the game?

Also, the new messages are TERRIBLE! Kids would NEVER respond like that in RL. I know I RS kids for 10 years in RL. If they responded like that in RL their butts would have been glued to the end of the bench. You need to clean the message up to have them a little classier. Who ever made them up appears to know nothing about how college basketball really works. In RL you bring the kid in to your office. You explalin your decision. You explain, if he chooses not to accept it, what the requirements will be to get more playing time. You discuss it with him and show him the advantages too him. You sell him. He usually accepts 70-80% of the time. If he does not his WE sometims goes up not down because he knows what his status is and what he has to do to play. It's a WIN-WIN for the player and the program.

Also informing a player during recruiting of a RS rarely, rarely happens in RL,  And almost always when the kid is totally cooperative (The youngest Plumlee at Duke). Why would you want to run a player off who you want and who can excel in the future? You get a frosh to campus to enjoy the environment. You let him see the squad and comp. You walk him thru what's best for him in the long run. He goes RS. Telling a kid during recruting only exists here, it appears to make you spend more money on him. Not remotely beneficial to anyone. Certainly not game player friendly. In fact the whole process has no value to the player.

RS is one of the few ways that coaches in this game who use RS,  have the opportunity to make their team better and to make gains on higher rated teams. It needs to be cleaned up to be more user friendly. It needs to be a more logical process that is not so nasty in player comments. As coaches, we should be able to figure out who we can RS and who we can't

Thanks, everyone for allowing my ranting and input. These forums are great and have some great contributors.

So your whole argument is based on the idea that a 3-season sample size on either side of the change is enough for you to know that the new system is horrible?

The old RS system made more sense? You tell a kid he's going to get RSed, he rejects it. Do it again and again, but on the 12th time he's cool with it, no problem...

If you don't want to gamble, use the inform of redshirt...it's in the game for a reason.