ath v. iq - Page 6 - Hoops Dynasty

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OK well I see you guys aren't going to be swayed. I have my opinion, you have yours, I respect that. Dac- I also really like Rodman (well his game at least). I'm curious a-in-the-b are you a jazz fan? B/c I'm a pistons fan.

7/13/2012 9:41 PM

a_in_the_b

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Actually, no. Currently without a team, although I live in Atlanta. We will see if Ferry does enough to make me a fan again for the Hawks. Before that, Illinois.

7/13/2012 9:51 PM

zbrent716

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Posted by poncho0091 on 7/13/2012 1:25:00 PM (view original):
There's a few things people forget when comparing the two teams. The game has changed so much.

1. Players these days don't play defense like they did back then. Nearly every team had decent defense back then, there might be 5-6 teams with good defense these days. Now players are to afraid to get posterized. If people moved out of the lane when someone was driving back in the day, we would be pulling his man card.

2. Referees call the game much differently now. People had to earn their way through the lane back then. now if a guy gets reathed on too hard they call a foul. The NBA has a bias towards offense right now because people get excited by big time scoring. LBJ is going to crush the record for FTA when its all said and done.

3. You have to create athletic skill sets on a baseline. Players in this day are generally bigger, faster , and stronger. I'm pretty certain the average height of players has increased over the years. Its easy to say the 12 team is better because they are more athletic, but the average of the athleticism in the league is also higher. the 92 dream team excelled athletically over their competition in relation to the time period. For example. Bill Russell would probably not make it in todays game because he is not longer taller, bigger, faster, stronger etc. Does that mean Bill Russell is not one of the greatest ever? no. So you would create a baseline of where the average physical stats were back then and find out where he stood in relation to those averages.

In order to make the comparison between these two teams, you have to create baseline and comparisons. In other words take todays players and place their physical abilities with relavence to the time period and vice versa. Under these circumstances, athleticism would be a lot closer than you realize and all that would leave left is actual skills. 92 dream team would smash any other team in actual skills.

RE: #2 - you mention later on that it is actually Malone that holds the record, but you don't mention by how much.

LBJ - In 9 completed seasons, he has 6082 FTA. He broke 800 FTA in a season once so far (2005-2006).
KM - in 19 completed seasons, he had 13188 FTA. He broke 800 FTA 6 times (2 of those over 900 FTA).

Other than the shortened season (98-99) Malone was a lock for 80+ games. LBJ started younger, but the odds are definitely against him avoiding injury and getting to 13K FTA. His FTA rate has been down since moving to MIA and his game is changing, but it's not as if he could possibly get *more* gift calls.

I'm not a big fan of Malone, and I agree the game today isn't nearly as physical, but that FTA mark is likely to stand for a long long time.

7/13/2012 10:46 PM

zbrent716

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Reading through all this, I also can't help but wonder how much of the discussion is impacted by 1) the immediacy of the 2012 team (people always love what is in front of them) and 2) the over-emphasis on "athleticism" from people who play HBD.

The 2012 team is, on the whole, superior athletically. If they were somehow loaded into HBD, maybe they'd win.

In the real world, athleticism doesn't play quite the same way, and - provided you have an adequate base level of athleticism (which every Dream Team player and every 2012 player does) - being better at basketball ultimately controls. The Dream Team was better at basketball. Might 2012 steal some games if they played H2H - sure. Would they consistently win a best-of-7? I don't think so, and I don't think it'd be that close.

7/13/2012 10:53 PM

isack24

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Posted by zbrent716 on 7/13/2012 10:53:00 PM (view original):
Reading through all this, I also can't help but wonder how much of the discussion is impacted by 1) the immediacy of the 2012 team (people always love what is in front of them) and 2) the over-emphasis on "athleticism" from people who play HBD.

The 2012 team is, on the whole, superior athletically. If they were somehow loaded into HBD, maybe they'd win.

In the real world, athleticism doesn't play quite the same way, and - provided you have an adequate base level of athleticism (which every Dream Team player and every 2012 player does) - being better at basketball ultimately controls. The Dream Team was better at basketball. Might 2012 steal some games if they played H2H - sure. Would they consistently win a best-of-7? I don't think so, and I don't think it'd be that close.

I agree with most of what you wrote, but I do think it would be close. I think there are enough guys on the 2012 team with a high basketball IQ to keep pace, if only slightly behind. I'm still pretty convinced that if 2012 put Lebron and Durant on the floor at the same time, the DT wouldn't have any idea how to guard them. And with the increasing prevalence of the pick-and-roll, I actually think a Chris Paul/Kevin Love or Lebron/Love high P+R would be very difficult for the DT to defend given their personnel. I don't see any of the DT bigs stepping out to defend Love.

Again, I don't think it's as saying "X player is better." It's about matchups and game dynamics. On the flip side, I don't see 2012 stopping the DT, even with their advantages in certain areas.

7/13/2012 11:20 PM

dahsdebater

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Posted by zbrent716 on 7/13/2012 10:53:00 PM (view original):
Reading through all this, I also can't help but wonder how much of the discussion is impacted by 1) the immediacy of the 2012 team (people always love what is in front of them) and 2) the over-emphasis on "athleticism" from people who play HBD.

The 2012 team is, on the whole, superior athletically. If they were somehow loaded into HBD, maybe they'd win.

In the real world, athleticism doesn't play quite the same way, and - provided you have an adequate base level of athleticism (which every Dream Team player and every 2012 player does) - being better at basketball ultimately controls. The Dream Team was better at basketball. Might 2012 steal some games if they played H2H - sure. Would they consistently win a best-of-7? I don't think so, and I don't think it'd be that close.

I actually think the opposite phenomenon is occurring - virtually everyone except me, ike, and dacj seems to me to be all caught up in the nostalgia of the dream team. Outside of MJ I don't really think those guys are all THAT much more talented than the guys playing now. Do you really think Stockton was a vastly superior passer to CP3 or Deron Williams? I think he was, at best, marginally better. And LeBron is a lot closer to Magic's passing talent level than most people give him credit for. It's easy to remember only the great games/stretches of play, so everybody always thinks the guy from 15 or 20 or 30 years ago was vastly better than anyone playing the game now. Most of the time it's not true. Jordan was better than anybody on the 2012 team. Or at the very least, more successful. LeBron may actually have a more complete package, but on mentality alone Jordan still blows him away as a player. Behind that I think it's hard to say LeBron wouldn't be the 2nd-best player in the game. After that a lot of guys are very similar in terms of overall talent - Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Durant, Paul, Robinson, and Bryant are all in the same vicinity as far as I'm concerned. Ewing, Pippen, and Williams aren't far behind. The Dream Team definitely has a little more depth in top-notch talent, but it's close enough in terms of the starting lineups and first few subs that I have a hard time believing that '92 wouldn't dominate inside, '12 dominate out, and the games overall wind up being quite close. I think the outside advantage is exacerbated by the fact that Love and Anthony Davis are incredibly comfortable outside of the paint. The only traditional post guy on offense on the '12 team is Chandler, and I think the post players for the Dream Team would be uncomfortable all game/series on defense.

7/13/2012 11:33 PM

tianyi7886

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Posted by poncho0091 on 7/13/2012 9:29:00 PM (view original):
Carmelo is one of the most overrated players in the league imo. I'd like to add that 2012 team usa does not have the depth that dream team had.

Thank you, finally a voice of reason. Having followed him pretty closely since he was drafted and especially after he got to the Knicks, I have to say Carmelo is all hype, little substance. He does not have the dominating physicality nor the athleticism of someone like Durant or LBJ, and lacks the quickness of the top notch guards of today's game ala Chris Paul. Having said this, it makes sense that he routinely settles for a mid/long distance jumpers, but his jumpshot isn't good.

Worst part is, he was hyped coming out of college and continues to be hyped as a premier scorer, a threat to explode for 40+ every night, etc. so he continues to play by looking for his shot first, passing the ball second. It is no coincidence that the Knicks did well for those 10 games where Carmelo was out. People can say that Jeremy Lin stepped up (which he did) but the Knicks was running a true D'Antoni offense without the ballhog Carmelo looking for his 20-25 shots a game.

7/14/2012 12:08 AM

poncho0091

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zbrent here is the link where I found the FTA.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fta_career.html

LBJ has 6032 FTA in 9 seasons.

In 19 seasons malone got 13188.

LBJ is on pace to come very close, but currently his numbers are slightly less.

For those of you looking for all kinds of stats like efficiency %, true shooting % etc, this site gives it to you. Just click on the player and look at advanced stats.

Just an interesting note in highest player efficiency ratings. MJ is #1, LBJ is #2.

7/14/2012 2:04 AM (edited)

ryandaniel

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Posted by isack24 on 7/13/2012 6:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/12/2012 7:28:00 PM (view original):
Not quite sure the current wings are that much better than the dream team. Scottie Pippen was in his prime and Chris Mullin is no pushover.

To be honest, if this was 2016 and the same players played, with Kobe at his current age, I would say this team can play evenly against the 92 team. The players in the current team, besides Lebron, are not really in their prime.
No, Mullin was a great player, but when 2012 goes like this:

PG: Paul
SG: Durant
SF: Anthony
PF: James
C: Love

Who is guarding that team from the Dream Team? I understand the 2012 team would get crushed down low, but seriously.

Robinson and Ewing have to step out on Love, something they've never had to do before. Then how else do they match up?

Sure, at PG they are probably fine, although I disagree that Stockton would really be able to stop Paul. But let's say he can. Jordan isn't big enough to guard any of those guys, although I'm sure he'd be OK. So you put Pippen on Anthony and Jordan on Durant? I say advantage 2012 (remember I'm only talking when 2012 is on offense). And who the hell is guarding LBJ? Barkley? Bird? None of them have the speed/strength combo for that match up and LBJ would run wild.

I really just don't think the DT can match up on the wings. But like I said, the DT would punish 2012 down low.

Jordan was perfectly able to guard guys much bigger than him while he was playing, I don't see why that ability would leave him here.

7/14/2012 8:53 AM

isack24

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I'll buy that if you can tell me who existed in Jordan's era that was anything like Durant. Jordan never had to guard anything close to Durant because no one like him has really ever existed. Same with LBJ.

Jordan would have a serious problem with either of those guys.

7/14/2012 9:29 AM

tianyi7886

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Posted by isack24 on 7/14/2012 9:29:00 AM (view original):
I'll buy that if you can tell me who existed in Jordan's era that was anything like Durant. Jordan never had to guard anything close to Durant because no one like him has really ever existed. Same with LBJ.

Jordan would have a serious problem with either of those guys.

Just because LBJ or Durant didn't exist doesn't mean that Jordan can't guard them. Why should we not give Jordan the benefit of the doubt here?

Here is a list of Jordan's assignments in key series. Sure there aren't any 6'11 players who can shoot a 20 foot J or a 6'8 sf with speed and athleticism, but it's not a bad list:

http://chasing23.com/did-scottie-pippen-always-guard-the-other-teams-best-player/

7/14/2012 9:59 AM

isack24

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I'm not knocking Jordan's defensive abilities, but I don't know why he would deserve the benefit of the doubt that he could guard guys who are totally different and/or better than any of the guys on that list.

Why don't I think he could guard LBJ? For the same reason that everyone says LBJ couldn't guard Jordan. Because they are unguardable given their size, speed, strength, talent, and the way they get calls (and yes, Jordan got all the calls LBJ gets and more).

Why don't I think Jordan could guard Durant? Size and speed. Jordan could be the best defender in the world, but at 6''6" there's nothing he can do.

7/14/2012 10:31 AM

cburton23

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Why are we all forgetting about Bird and Magic? Sure they were past their prime, but anybody who has spent anytime in the local church league knows old guys are the best defenders because they know how to cheat and hold without getting caught.

Also I'd take Bird over Mullin or Durant in HORSE any day.

7/14/2012 11:00 AM

tianyi7886

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The one person we are actually forgetting is Clyde the Glide Drexler, who was playing at this peak. Bird and Magic are already on the downturn of their career.

7/14/2012 11:21 AM

zbrent716

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Posted by isack24 on 7/14/2012 10:31:00 AM (view original):
I'm not knocking Jordan's defensive abilities, but I don't know why he would deserve the benefit of the doubt that he could guard guys who are totally different and/or better than any of the guys on that list.

Why don't I think he could guard LBJ? For the same reason that everyone says LBJ couldn't guard Jordan. Because they are unguardable given their size, speed, strength, talent, and the way they get calls (and yes, Jordan got all the calls LBJ gets and more).

Why don't I think Jordan could guard Durant? Size and speed. Jordan could be the best defender in the world, but at 6''6" there's nothing he can do.

"Larry Bird wasn't as talented as any of these guys on the current team. But he was still better because he was fundamentally sound and plays the game the way it was supposed to be played," Worthy said. "There's not a lot of one on one. LeBron wouldn't have as much success playing one-on-one game against Patrick Ewing and David Robinson. He' be met at the rim. It just doesn't happen.... Guys were defensively minded and I don't see that as much in today's game."

Link.

Putting aside for the moment the talent comment (I think he means athletic) and the "way it was supposed to be played" part, this comment illustrates something some of you are missing. Let's say, for the moment, that Jordan couldn't guard (for ex.) Durant (not sure I agree, but whatever) - this is perhaps relevant in today's game, where you beat your man and then are rewarded with a highlight dunk as everyone gets out of the way at the rim. That's not how the Dream Team played.

IF you get past Jordan (or whoever) on the perimeter, you have the likes of Ewing and Robinson waiting at the rim. They can erase a lot of defensive "mistakes" on the outside. Finally, Jordan and Pippen were all-world defenders with Bill Cartright, Will Purdue, Luc Longley, and Bill Wennington behind them. Their actual level of defensive intensity is more-or-less unmatched in today's NBA; what they would do to today's players knowing they could be super aggressive and have some of those mistakes nullified at the rim? The present-day players might adjust somewhat eventually, but right now they're simply not prepared for it.

7/14/2012 1:53 PM

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