Posted by mullycj on 7/16/2012 2:46:00 PM (view original):
Send in a ticket.

1) SIMS do not make any final push.
2) I think there is something wrong in the recruitng process that Seble is not looking at.   I have been in several battles and seen several threads where a player has switched "allegiance" without a new scholly email getting sent out.   This needs to be looked at.

FYI, a while back Mully and i got into a discussion about this. acc. to admin, mully is right. however, acc to what happened to me, the engine does not work as it is intended and sims do, indeed, make an additional push. admin's response was "there was another coach that had recruited that player" - this answer was complete horse ****. specifically, if another coach had made enough of an effort to change the schollie message, shouldn't the coach have appeared on the considering list, even if i was still in the lead? i would def approach these v. sim battles on the assumption that sim might make an extra push @ some point...

jtt - this same thing has happened in 1-1 human battles where the player changed their choice without spending.   I don't think this issue is only related to SIMS.  I think there is a coding error or something else that CS has not told us.

Well, this was the response I got from the ticket I put in:

"First off, Im sorry about your luck with that particular recruit. I do have some helpful suggestions to help you avoid or prepare for this in the future. Please search for Knowledge Base Articles #692 and #817. This should help answer your question and also help you with the recruiting process in the future."

Basically, those two things say "There is an element of randomness to whether or not they sign with you." They seem like basically "If things go wrong, we can point to this and say this is why". Seem like cop out clauses to me.

That is such a frustrating response. I basically learned nothing of use from this experience other than "always spend more than you think you need to".

Posted by mullycj on 7/16/2012 4:15:00 PM (view original):
jtt - this same thing has happened in 1-1 human battles where the player changed their choice without spending.   I don't think this issue is only related to SIMS.  I think there is a coding error or something else that CS has not told us.

That's not what I'm talking about.

OK, I'll "eat my crow" in that CS continues to stand by this, but I refuse to believe it.  I was waiting on a sim-recruited player.  He was keeping his options open up through the morning before signings.  The FSS in the early morn said he was keeping his options wide open, as had been the case the entire time.  I went to recruit him and sent 10-15 scouts.  Came back with nothing and a new FSS saying *tight* with the sim.  I thought, "OK, maybe there is considering credit," so I sent another 15 evals.  Nothing.  Didn't even get considering.  Another 10...nothing.  Signed with the sim first cycle of signings.

Now we all now considering credit (if sims even have it, which they may or may not) doesn't matter that much.  To go from "keeping options open" to unrecruitably *tight* based on considering credit seems far-fetched.  I'm not saying it happens in every case, but it seems like it happens.  And I'm certainly not going to rely on CS; I think we all know that's not an ironclad defense.

Can anyone actually verify that sims even get considering credit?

There are only 2 levels of FSS considering - tight and not-so-tight.  So when you say "keeping options open," that could go anywhere from being the equivalent of only a few HVs to being just below the threshold for "tight."  I think your problem is that you're convinced here that "keeping options open" is light years away from "unrecruitably tight."  I think 30 scouting trips is easily below the threshold for tight even in D3, so it doesn't surprise me at all that it could, in some cases, take that much or more to win out against a "not tight" sim recruit.  Just bad luck, but it is what it is.

Incidentally, a similar thing to this happened to me over a year ago and it wasn't new then.  There has been a glitch since the big seble rewrite (at least) in which you do not seem to get a scholarship message when the player's status changes exclusively as a result of considering credit.  Since that time I've made a point of always trying to send a little extra effort when I get the "just barely ahead" scholarship messages in battles against sims or even humans who were on a guy before me.

EDIT: what level was this?  40 STs does seem very close to the amount it should take for the border of tight and less tight considering in D3 at least.  Were you still not even getting back the "keep on him, we're getting close" type messages at the bottom of your ST reports?

Pretty sure there are 3 levels of FSS considering. The minimal effort "keeping options open" level; the middle "leaning" level, and the tight /high priority level.

for what it's worth, here was my exchange with admin:

5/17/2012 11:06 AM	jtt8355
SIM and I were both recruiting the same recruit. We were both being considered from day 1. We were the only 2 teams being considered from the 1st day through his signing with my team. I received the following scholarship messages (in chronological order): 5/14 (11:00 AM) - "Coach, thanks for the scholarship offer - I wish I could sign right now!" 5/15 (11:01 AM) - "Coach, thanks again for the scholarship offer - I really like your program, but I have to tell you, I may still have some other options that I want to check out yet." 5/15 (2:00 PM) - "Coach, you're my #1 school right now and if I could sign today, I would. Stupid WCAA and their regulations." it appears that SIM put in additional recruiting effort after the 1st cycle. though, other coaches swear by the maxim that SIM doesn't recruit after the 1st, SIM-only cycle. (Personally, I would prefer if SIM recruited in multiple cycles - would prevent human coaches from easily poaching SIM recruits.) However, based on the scholarship messages above, it appears that SIM put in an extra push for this recruit. One coach suggested that it was SIM's early recruiting effort kicking in. I call BS on that! Early recruiting credit, to my understanding, requires 24 hrs of consideration AND its factored in to the efforts that a 2nd coach has to make, rather than creating a delayed recruiting push. Who's right? Does SIM recruit in multiple cycles or does SIM get an early recruiting credit push, even if they never had a 24 hr window?
5/17/2012 2:36 PM	Customer Support
Jamie, What recruit are you referring to?
5/17/2012 3:06 PM	jtt8355
James Stern
5/17/2012 3:08 PM	jtt8355
http://whatifsports.com/hd/RecruitProfile/Default.aspx?rid=2355992
5/17/2012 5:14 PM	Customer Support
Sim AI schools do not put in extra recruiting effort after the start of the period. I can't say for sure what triggered the change in responses, but there was another human-coached school pursuing the player late in the day on the 14th.

note that admin's response re: the 14th is irreconcilable with the may 15th extra push - i.e., why would an effort from the previous day have any effect on scholarship message the next day? 

I have experienced this with both sim and player battles-- and been on both sides of the outcome.  I believe there is some variable in the signing equation that is different than the FSS or even scholarship messages.  Once a player's signing threshold has been reached or triggered, a different formula is used for deciding on where that player signs and it is those differing variables that causes this to happen, in my opinion.  In other words, just as in real life, I don't trust words, only actions.  I don't have an issue with this as it mimics real life but  I think the FSS and scholarship messages are misleading and that is why I don't always receive notice of no longer leading and lose out on a player. 
   In my time with the sim, I have already reached the conclusion that those messages are by no means 100%, and for individuals in a lot of tight battles (such as new players), I would say it is closer to only 60-70%.  I know this goes against 'conventional advice' but the results speak for themselves  

push back with CS. That doesn't make any sense.

Yeah I'm not really sure how best to respond aside from "That's ridiculous."

This was kinda the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I will be unlikely to renew once my seasons run out. This game has become more often frustrating than fun for me.

Posted by disasteruss on 7/17/2012 6:10:00 AM (view original):
Yeah I'm not really sure how best to respond aside from "That's ridiculous."

This was kinda the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I will be unlikely to renew once my seasons run out. This game has become more often frustrating than fun for me.

I'd start with some iteration of that and go from there. Make sure you are talking to seble if possible...

Posted by isack24 on 7/16/2012 5:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mullycj on 7/16/2012 4:15:00 PM (view original):
jtt - this same thing has happened in 1-1 human battles where the player changed their choice without spending.   I don't think this issue is only related to SIMS.  I think there is a coding error or something else that CS has not told us.

That's not what I'm talking about.

OK, I'll "eat my crow" in that CS continues to stand by this, but I refuse to believe it.  I was waiting on a sim-recruited player.  He was keeping his options open up through the morning before signings.  The FSS in the early morn said he was keeping his options wide open, as had been the case the entire time.  I went to recruit him and sent 10-15 scouts.  Came back with nothing and a new FSS saying *tight* with the sim.  I thought, "OK, maybe there is considering credit," so I sent another 15 evals.  Nothing.  Didn't even get considering.  Another 10...nothing.  Signed with the sim first cycle of signings.

Now we all now considering credit (if sims even have it, which they may or may not) doesn't matter that much.  To go from "keeping options open" to unrecruitably *tight* based on considering credit seems far-fetched.  I'm not saying it happens in every case, but it seems like it happens.  And I'm certainly not going to rely on CS; I think we all know that's not an ironclad defense.

Can anyone actually verify that sims even get considering credit?

this is totally reasonable... 40 scouting trips not showing up against a "tight" recruit - there is nothing wrong there! why did you spend your money so inefficiently? and yeah, its reasonable for a player to go from loose to tight on considering credit - ive seen it many times myself.

Posted by disasteruss on 7/17/2012 6:10:00 AM (view original):
Yeah I'm not really sure how best to respond aside from "That's ridiculous."

This was kinda the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I will be unlikely to renew once my seasons run out. This game has become more often frustrating than fun for me.

assuming you still had a scholarship message out, and the last scholarship message was what you said it was, and you had an open spot to sign the player - then there is no way he should have signed with the sim. i would keep pushing for more info, but i would double check those things first, because those are the keys that make this situation a problem. a number of these type of situations have come up where somebody had pulled a scholarship or forgot to offer it in the first place, so it never hurts to double check those things =) 

Posted by professor17 on 7/16/2012 6:23:00 PM (view original):
Pretty sure there are 3 levels of FSS considering. The minimal effort "keeping options open" level; the middle "leaning" level, and the tight /high priority level.

with 9 FSS messages, its a good guess, but there are really 6 "loose" messages and 3 "tight" ones. i wondered the same thing myself like 2 months ago, so i spent a season paying attention to it, and its clear to me there are only 2 levels. you can watch players - have to be a bit careful - but essentially any player who you know was not just redshirted or had a scholarship message removed - you know the next FSS message you see is at least as strong as the first - because of considering credit. once you get both relationships - message A is greater than or equal to B, message B is greater than or equal to A, those kind - then you can conclude they are the same meaning. i tracked maybe 15 players and got a good 50 relationships between message which verified several times over, there are 6 loose messages, and 3 strong ones.