There's plenty of disagreement about what HD should be -- should it mimic real life more, or should it open up more "whatif" possibilities for small schools -- but I don't think anyone thinks it should be HARDER to be successful with a small school in HD as compared to real life.  There are not nearly enough upsets in the tourney.  It simply makes no sense that there are more non-power schools in the real-life Sweet 16 than in the HD Sweet 16. Many HD seasons ago I think Seble put in a "fix" to make sim results more "stable," meaning fewer upsets.  Maybe that plays a part in it.

Posted by car_crazy_v2 on 7/24/2012 10:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/24/2012 10:10:00 AM (view original):
And do you really want Murray State to be your shining RL example of non-bcs teams doing well? This is the team that missed both the NT/NIT in 06-09, and only made the NIT with a 14-4 in conf record (and as you said, in a terrible conf) in 2010-11 season. Sure, they made it to the 2nd round last year and the 09-10 season, but so what? They are inconsistent at best. 

Bow2dacowz's Troy made the S16 twice (although I'm not sure who they beat). Marquette made it to the S16 by upsetting the #1 seeded St. Johns while my Alcorn State team (from a 1 bid conf) made it to the 2nd round by beating Tennessee from the SEC. And both of these teams made the NT every season. Both Troy and Alcorn State made the NT more consistently than Murray State and had similar, if not better success. 

Yeah, obviously not, but they and Long Beach St. are simply the two most recent examples. 

Too lazy to research, but those are just the two examples I have from memory. But obviously I could reference VCU and Butler's run, which will NEVER EVER happen in HD's current state. And I would put cash down on that bet. 

Really? Iba A-10 had won a NC just 4 seasons ago, and another in season 52. And if you look at the history of IBA A-10, they weren't even close to being full or had the conf strength of CUSA Rupp:

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=6138

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=5948

Posted by car_crazy_v2 on 7/24/2012 9:28:00 AM (view original):

Posted by girt25 on 7/24/2012 9:12:00 AM (view original):
Just looking at Allen (which is a vast wasteland for non-BCS team) this season you had:

Boise: 25-4, 27 rpi
Oral Roberts: 26-4, 32 rpi (conference with nine sims)
Stephen F Austin, 24-6, 37 rpi (conference with 10 sims)
IPFW, 23-7, 36 rpi (conference with nine sims ... they've had 23-28 wins four seasons in a row)

Well it seems that IPFW and Oral Roberts have been feeding off of each other's success, as well as a decent conference despite all of the sims (no teams about 275 in RPI, Stetson's also a PIT team). 

Boise has a great conference which is nearly full so that doesn't fit the type of conference we're talking about. 

And Stephen F Austin is garbage that just has an inflated RPI due to their advantageous schedule. They had no chance to win a NT game. 

What does that even mean -- "they're feeding off each others' success". Even as poor rationalizations go, that one doesn't make sense. They play in a garbage conference and, like it or not, they're examples of exactly what you're saying doesn't exist. And in a world where non-BCS teams are totally dead, to boot.

Again, I agree with the notion that non-BCS teams need/deserve more of a push. But your contention that Murray State type seasons don't happen is just totally off base.

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/24/2012 12:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by car_crazy_v2 on 7/24/2012 10:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/24/2012 10:10:00 AM (view original):
And do you really want Murray State to be your shining RL example of non-bcs teams doing well? This is the team that missed both the NT/NIT in 06-09, and only made the NIT with a 14-4 in conf record (and as you said, in a terrible conf) in 2010-11 season. Sure, they made it to the 2nd round last year and the 09-10 season, but so what? They are inconsistent at best. 

Bow2dacowz's Troy made the S16 twice (although I'm not sure who they beat). Marquette made it to the S16 by upsetting the #1 seeded St. Johns while my Alcorn State team (from a 1 bid conf) made it to the 2nd round by beating Tennessee from the SEC. And both of these teams made the NT every season. Both Troy and Alcorn State made the NT more consistently than Murray State and had similar, if not better success. 

Yeah, obviously not, but they and Long Beach St. are simply the two most recent examples. 

Too lazy to research, but those are just the two examples I have from memory. But obviously I could reference VCU and Butler's run, which will NEVER EVER happen in HD's current state. And I would put cash down on that bet. 

Really? Iba A-10 had won a NC just 4 seasons ago, and another in season 52. And if you look at the history of IBA A-10, they weren't even close to being full or had the conf strength of CUSA Rupp:

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=6138

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=5948

They may not have had the strength of CUSA in Rupp, but they had a strong conference. Would you like to compare their conferences at the time with that of VCU and Butler last season?

Posted by girt25 on 7/24/2012 12:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by car_crazy_v2 on 7/24/2012 9:28:00 AM (view original):

Posted by girt25 on 7/24/2012 9:12:00 AM (view original):
Just looking at Allen (which is a vast wasteland for non-BCS team) this season you had:

Boise: 25-4, 27 rpi
Oral Roberts: 26-4, 32 rpi (conference with nine sims)
Stephen F Austin, 24-6, 37 rpi (conference with 10 sims)
IPFW, 23-7, 36 rpi (conference with nine sims ... they've had 23-28 wins four seasons in a row)

Well it seems that IPFW and Oral Roberts have been feeding off of each other's success, as well as a decent conference despite all of the sims (no teams about 275 in RPI, Stetson's also a PIT team). 

Boise has a great conference which is nearly full so that doesn't fit the type of conference we're talking about. 

And Stephen F Austin is garbage that just has an inflated RPI due to their advantageous schedule. They had no chance to win a NT game. 

What does that even mean -- "they're feeding off each others' success". Even as poor rationalizations go, that one doesn't make sense. They play in a garbage conference and, like it or not, they're examples of exactly what you're saying doesn't exist. And in a world where non-BCS teams are totally dead, to boot.

Again, I agree with the notion that non-BCS teams need/deserve more of a push. But your contention that Murray State type seasons don't happen is just totally off base.

By that I meant that as they both became NT teams, they had more recruiting cash and the conference became stronger as a whole. 

Posted by car_crazy_v2 on 7/24/2012 1:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/24/2012 12:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by car_crazy_v2 on 7/24/2012 10:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/24/2012 10:10:00 AM (view original):
And do you really want Murray State to be your shining RL example of non-bcs teams doing well? This is the team that missed both the NT/NIT in 06-09, and only made the NIT with a 14-4 in conf record (and as you said, in a terrible conf) in 2010-11 season. Sure, they made it to the 2nd round last year and the 09-10 season, but so what? They are inconsistent at best. 

Bow2dacowz's Troy made the S16 twice (although I'm not sure who they beat). Marquette made it to the S16 by upsetting the #1 seeded St. Johns while my Alcorn State team (from a 1 bid conf) made it to the 2nd round by beating Tennessee from the SEC. And both of these teams made the NT every season. Both Troy and Alcorn State made the NT more consistently than Murray State and had similar, if not better success. 

Yeah, obviously not, but they and Long Beach St. are simply the two most recent examples. 

Too lazy to research, but those are just the two examples I have from memory. But obviously I could reference VCU and Butler's run, which will NEVER EVER happen in HD's current state. And I would put cash down on that bet. 

Really? Iba A-10 had won a NC just 4 seasons ago, and another in season 52. And if you look at the history of IBA A-10, they weren't even close to being full or had the conf strength of CUSA Rupp:

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=6138

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=5948

They may not have had the strength of CUSA in Rupp, but they had a strong conference. Would you like to compare their conferences at the time with that of VCU and Butler last season?

They also won National Championships, did VCU or Butler do the same? You are arguing that WIS midmajors suffer insurmountable disadvantages that severely outweigh their RL counterpart. Yet, we have seen WIS midmajors go farther than their RL counterparts. When's the last time there were 2 midmajors in the F4 or won the whole thing in real life?

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/24/2012 12:36:00 AM (view original):

Posted by car_crazy_v2 on 7/23/2012 11:27:00 PM (view original):
My point there is that teams like Murray State have completely awful conferences around them, but they manage to field very competitive teams. And that is just one extreme scenario that would never ever happen in HD. 

That's completely false. The following D1 teams from Phelan were all pretty competitive, making it to 2nd round and S16s from very weak conf, until their human coach left:


http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=14039

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=13904

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=13759

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=13998
http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=13825
http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=13924

Interesting point that brings up one of my pet peeves. 

It's almost impossible to get a good coach to take over a good mid-major team when a human moves up.  Once a team improves it's prestige by pulling off a couple of NT bids, the coach looks to leave.  And then, rather than taking the best human DI coach who applies, the system says they aren't qualified and it goes AI and crashes.  A very easy fix would be to have, near the very end of job changes, any open program will take the best DI coach that applies even if not up to what the school is looking for. 

UNLV in Crum, for example, was built into something great by budlight -- they were making deep runs every year and fighting the Pac-12 for recruits.  Wehn BL moved to Washington, however, and it went AI (despite some solid coaches at least publically saying they looked).  It became a joke.  Why?  WiS would be better served by a happy coach.  UNLV and the conference would have been better served by letting a human at least try to outperform Simmy. 

And a mid-major has a chance to mirror RL Gonzaga (under several coaches) and not just RL UNLV that tanked after Tark left.

I think that if there was more transparency with respect to coaching changes, there would be a better chance to keep a mid-major power between different coaches.  When I wanted to move up to D1 in Phelan, I ended up at Oral Roberts instead of my other 3 choices and I have absolutely no clue why.  I could narrow down my selections if I knew exactly what I needed to do in order to get to a certain school. 

NC State in Phelan is going through a similar situation, but on the BCS level.  It won the National Championship in Season 47 and their coach decided to leave for a different school.  Since the school won the NT, a human wasn't qualified to take over the school.  Three years down the road and NCSU finished 6-21 (3-13 conference) with SIM "coaching."  Furthermore, I don't think that I'll be qualified to take over the team even though I have been to the NT or PI as a low-major school the last 5 years.  The entire coaching jobs process is frustrating and detracts from my interest in the game.  I'm staying at my school to finish out my subscription, but I have little interest in continuing afterwards unless the coaching requirements are more transparent.

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/24/2012 2:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by car_crazy_v2 on 7/24/2012 1:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/24/2012 12:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by car_crazy_v2 on 7/24/2012 10:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/24/2012 10:10:00 AM (view original):
And do you really want Murray State to be your shining RL example of non-bcs teams doing well? This is the team that missed both the NT/NIT in 06-09, and only made the NIT with a 14-4 in conf record (and as you said, in a terrible conf) in 2010-11 season. Sure, they made it to the 2nd round last year and the 09-10 season, but so what? They are inconsistent at best. 

Bow2dacowz's Troy made the S16 twice (although I'm not sure who they beat). Marquette made it to the S16 by upsetting the #1 seeded St. Johns while my Alcorn State team (from a 1 bid conf) made it to the 2nd round by beating Tennessee from the SEC. And both of these teams made the NT every season. Both Troy and Alcorn State made the NT more consistently than Murray State and had similar, if not better success. 

Yeah, obviously not, but they and Long Beach St. are simply the two most recent examples. 

Too lazy to research, but those are just the two examples I have from memory. But obviously I could reference VCU and Butler's run, which will NEVER EVER happen in HD's current state. And I would put cash down on that bet. 

Really? Iba A-10 had won a NC just 4 seasons ago, and another in season 52. And if you look at the history of IBA A-10, they weren't even close to being full or had the conf strength of CUSA Rupp:

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=6138

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=5948

They may not have had the strength of CUSA in Rupp, but they had a strong conference. Would you like to compare their conferences at the time with that of VCU and Butler last season?

They also won National Championships, did VCU or Butler do the same? You are arguing that WIS midmajors suffer insurmountable disadvantages that severely outweigh their RL counterpart. Yet, we have seen WIS midmajors go farther than their RL counterparts. When's the last time there were 2 midmajors in the F4 or won the whole thing in real life?

Let's not forget that this is WHAT IF sports. That conference was built up over a long period of time by many great coaches who banded together before the major changes were made to HD and made the A10 a very solid conference from top to bottom. 

It seems like you are forgetting this is "whatif" sports by trying to convince everyone that this game should mirror RL 100%, and making a pretty poor case of it. 

Posted by car_crazy_v2 on 7/24/2012 1:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by girt25 on 7/24/2012 12:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by car_crazy_v2 on 7/24/2012 9:28:00 AM (view original):

Posted by girt25 on 7/24/2012 9:12:00 AM (view original):
Just looking at Allen (which is a vast wasteland for non-BCS team) this season you had:

Boise: 25-4, 27 rpi
Oral Roberts: 26-4, 32 rpi (conference with nine sims)
Stephen F Austin, 24-6, 37 rpi (conference with 10 sims)
IPFW, 23-7, 36 rpi (conference with nine sims ... they've had 23-28 wins four seasons in a row)

Well it seems that IPFW and Oral Roberts have been feeding off of each other's success, as well as a decent conference despite all of the sims (no teams about 275 in RPI, Stetson's also a PIT team). 

Boise has a great conference which is nearly full so that doesn't fit the type of conference we're talking about. 

And Stephen F Austin is garbage that just has an inflated RPI due to their advantageous schedule. They had no chance to win a NT game. 

What does that even mean -- "they're feeding off each others' success". Even as poor rationalizations go, that one doesn't make sense. They play in a garbage conference and, like it or not, they're examples of exactly what you're saying doesn't exist. And in a world where non-BCS teams are totally dead, to boot.

Again, I agree with the notion that non-BCS teams need/deserve more of a push. But your contention that Murray State type seasons don't happen is just totally off base.

By that I meant that as they both became NT teams, they had more recruiting cash and the conference became stronger as a whole. 

car_crazy ... come on.

First, Oral Roberts hasn't been making the NT.
Second, even if they had been, it wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference -- an additional NT-1st round is an additional $1,666/team. Not even a blipon the radar. It's not making anyone stronger, richer or more powerful as a whole. Just stop it.

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/24/2012 2:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by car_crazy_v2 on 7/24/2012 1:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/24/2012 12:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by car_crazy_v2 on 7/24/2012 10:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/24/2012 10:10:00 AM (view original):
And do you really want Murray State to be your shining RL example of non-bcs teams doing well? This is the team that missed both the NT/NIT in 06-09, and only made the NIT with a 14-4 in conf record (and as you said, in a terrible conf) in 2010-11 season. Sure, they made it to the 2nd round last year and the 09-10 season, but so what? They are inconsistent at best. 

Bow2dacowz's Troy made the S16 twice (although I'm not sure who they beat). Marquette made it to the S16 by upsetting the #1 seeded St. Johns while my Alcorn State team (from a 1 bid conf) made it to the 2nd round by beating Tennessee from the SEC. And both of these teams made the NT every season. Both Troy and Alcorn State made the NT more consistently than Murray State and had similar, if not better success. 

Yeah, obviously not, but they and Long Beach St. are simply the two most recent examples. 

Too lazy to research, but those are just the two examples I have from memory. But obviously I could reference VCU and Butler's run, which will NEVER EVER happen in HD's current state. And I would put cash down on that bet. 

Really? Iba A-10 had won a NC just 4 seasons ago, and another in season 52. And if you look at the history of IBA A-10, they weren't even close to being full or had the conf strength of CUSA Rupp:

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=6138

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=5948

They may not have had the strength of CUSA in Rupp, but they had a strong conference. Would you like to compare their conferences at the time with that of VCU and Butler last season?

They also won National Championships, did VCU or Butler do the same? You are arguing that WIS midmajors suffer insurmountable disadvantages that severely outweigh their RL counterpart. Yet, we have seen WIS midmajors go farther than their RL counterparts. When's the last time there were 2 midmajors in the F4 or won the whole thing in real life?

Um...2011? 

fair enough, but when the op makes the case that midmajors do better in rl than in wis, while we have seen WIS midmajors win NCs in the past 5 seasons is a little ridiculous. 

The last NT/PIT in Allen:

total half-games played: 188
Big Six: 143
WCC: 11 (two one-and-dones in the NT plus nine games of PIT play)
All others: 34

The minimum for "all others", with no one outside those seven conferences making the PIT and everyone in those conferences being a one-bid league that goes one-and-done?  Is 20.

Congrats to Memphis, the only non-Big Six school to win an NT game (a 12-over-5 upset of Villanova).

Posted by girt25 on 7/24/2012 5:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by car_crazy_v2 on 7/24/2012 1:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by girt25 on 7/24/2012 12:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by car_crazy_v2 on 7/24/2012 9:28:00 AM (view original):

Posted by girt25 on 7/24/2012 9:12:00 AM (view original):
Just looking at Allen (which is a vast wasteland for non-BCS team) this season you had:

Boise: 25-4, 27 rpi
Oral Roberts: 26-4, 32 rpi (conference with nine sims)
Stephen F Austin, 24-6, 37 rpi (conference with 10 sims)
IPFW, 23-7, 36 rpi (conference with nine sims ... they've had 23-28 wins four seasons in a row)

Well it seems that IPFW and Oral Roberts have been feeding off of each other's success, as well as a decent conference despite all of the sims (no teams about 275 in RPI, Stetson's also a PIT team). 

Boise has a great conference which is nearly full so that doesn't fit the type of conference we're talking about. 

And Stephen F Austin is garbage that just has an inflated RPI due to their advantageous schedule. They had no chance to win a NT game. 

What does that even mean -- "they're feeding off each others' success". Even as poor rationalizations go, that one doesn't make sense. They play in a garbage conference and, like it or not, they're examples of exactly what you're saying doesn't exist. And in a world where non-BCS teams are totally dead, to boot.

Again, I agree with the notion that non-BCS teams need/deserve more of a push. But your contention that Murray State type seasons don't happen is just totally off base.

By that I meant that as they both became NT teams, they had more recruiting cash and the conference became stronger as a whole. 

car_crazy ... come on.

First, Oral Roberts hasn't been making the NT.
Second, even if they had been, it wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference -- an additional NT-1st round is an additional $1,666/team. Not even a blipon the radar. It's not making anyone stronger, richer or more powerful as a whole. Just stop it.

Nope, you're 100% right there. I must have looked at something wrong or just had a brain-malfunction. I just looked at their history and you're absolutely right, my bad. 

As for tianyi, I think you're missing the point that the only reason 2 non-Big 6 teams won a NC is because the conference and more specifically, the teams that won, were being built as programs for a long time by elite coaches. 

It may not have been CUSA Rupp, but it was better than the A10 would get in RL because those coaches would not stay there due to contractual limitations.