Were boosters cheating? Topic

Two contrasting viewpoints here.  I'd be interested to open this up for the room - I edited in the details of what happened but have otherwise used ump's words:

Umpikes:

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Boosters were cheating as it gave an unfair advantage. I thought I was 1 player away from a title a few times at Texas and corn cheated me out of a player by using boosters, so no one got him...bs! The penalty you got corn was a joke and invited people to cheat...just my opinion.

 

Do you even admit you did something wrong Corn? If not, you don't understand the point to begin with. It was built into the system for dirty coaches as a last resort...a morality test if you will. The best coaches didn't use it.

Corn, what we have here is a failure to communicate. I have always liked you, but on this one your way off base. Call it what you want, [cornfused using boosters] was cheating or ethically wrong or not in the spirit of the game or just plain bs...or a combination of those. That stuff had/has no business in this game and it really bothered me that I got screwed from it [when you took a recruit from me using boosters and got caught] and you got off basically scot-free [probation, postseason ban, docked prestige, and the loss of the recruit, plus 8 revoked wins, leading to a 1-27 season in between RPI-14 Sweet 16 runs… but no coaching ban or site warning]. That being said, I thought it was ridiculous that you of all people would call out Viper for potential recruiting violations.

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My opinion is that boosters weren't cheating, especially not when compared to a Terms of Service violation such as blatant attempted collusion.  For me, it's not "cheating" at a game to use a feature that's built into the game, albeit with a defined riskiness.  That simple.  Using boosters would be like having a Swiss bank account; violating the ToS is like bribing your local representative. 


8/1/2012 4:24 PM (edited)
I should clarify that ump and I are former conference mates on good terms with each other - these aren't personal attacks back and forth as much as they are vehement disagreement about the issue at hand.
8/1/2012 4:22 PM
Posted by cornfused on 8/1/2012 4:24:00 PM (view original):
Two contrasting viewpoints here.  I'd be interested to open this up for the room - I edited in the details of what happened but have otherwise used ump's words:

Umpikes:

----

 

Boosters were cheating as it gave an unfair advantage. I thought I was 1 player away from a title a few times at Texas and corn cheated me out of a player by using boosters, so no one got him...bs! The penalty you got corn was a joke and invited people to cheat...just my opinion.

 

Do you even admit you did something wrong Corn? If not, you don't understand the point to begin with. It was built into the system for dirty coaches as a last resort...a morality test if you will. The best coaches didn't use it.

Corn, what we have here is a failure to communicate. I have always liked you, but on this one your way off base. Call it what you want, [cornfused using boosters] was cheating or ethically wrong or not in the spirit of the game or just plain bs...or a combination of those. That stuff had/has no business in this game and it really bothered me that I got screwed from it [when you took a recruit from me using boosters and got caught] and you got off basically scot-free [probation, postseason ban, docked prestige, and the loss of the recruit, plus 8 revoked wins, leading to a 1-27 season in between RPI-14 Sweet 16 runs… but no coaching ban or site warning]. That being said, I thought it was ridiculous that you of all people would call out Viper for potential recruiting violations.

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My opinion is that boosters weren't cheating, especially not when compared to a Terms of Service violation such as blatant attempted collusion.  For me, it's not "cheating" at a game to use a feature that's built into the game, albeit with a defined riskiness.  That simple.  Using boosters would be like having a Swiss bank account; violating the ToS is like bribing your local representative. 


why in the hell would someone get a site warning for using the game?
8/1/2012 4:27 PM
Yeah, that's what I was wondering - seems like taking an obviously very talented team (based on the bookend seasons) and giving them a 1-27 season with no postseason, loss of prestige, and taking away the recruit is, in fact, a very steep penalty.  Why would you get a coaching ban or a site warning for using a feature built into the game?  That would be ridiculous - WIS never said "don't use boosters, we haven't removed them yet but they are cheating."  If they had it would have been a joke.  I think umpikes is way off base on this one.
8/1/2012 4:31 PM
I feel like boosters weren't cheating, but were bad form and not something I really liked about the game.  I am glad they are gone.

As a bizarre reference, it would be like if you were playing golf vs. a person you didn't know for $1000 on a par 3 for a closest to the pin.  They go to hit their tee shot, and right at that exact moment a bird flies out of no where and their tee shot hits the bird, goes 25 yards total into a hazard.  Do you ask for $1000 right there?  Or let them re-shoot.

Boosters are kinda like asking for the $1000.  Jerk move, but within the rules and not cheating.  Just not high on the ethics scale.
8/1/2012 4:35 PM
Not cheating.  It was built in to the game and players had to weigh the risk/reward of using them.  Most chose not to, but it was their choice just as it was the choice of others to take a chance.
8/1/2012 4:42 PM
Not "cheating" if "cheating" is defined as "improper under the rules of the game."  Not even close to cheating under that definition.
8/1/2012 5:13 PM

corn, umpikes is my conference mate, but I disagreed with him on the cc and will again here. He's just off base. It was part of the game. There were repercussions if you got caught. It wasn't cheating.

8/1/2012 5:23 PM

Girtie and Corn are wrong...but we can agree to disagree. What bothered me was the fact that you called out someone Corn for something far less insidious that what you did...it's just hypocritical. You didn't mention that in your earlier post yourself.  If you don't want to call it cheating, what is it then when someone gets screwed out of a player when we're playing this game for money/credits?

8/1/2012 5:28 PM
umpikes is on an island with this one.  If there's a button in the game available for use by every single player, how could it possibly be cheating if someone uses it? 
8/1/2012 5:31 PM
Posted by jslotman on 8/1/2012 5:31:00 PM (view original):
umpikes is on an island with this one.  If there's a button in the game available for use by every single player, how could it possibly be cheating if someone uses it? 
This.

Sorry man, not much support here.
8/1/2012 5:36 PM
Yep...umpikes...you are flat out wrong.  In every possible sense. 
8/1/2012 5:39 PM
Posted by umpikes on 8/1/2012 5:28:00 PM (view original):

Girtie and Corn are wrong...but we can agree to disagree. What bothered me was the fact that you called out someone Corn for something far less insidious that what you did...it's just hypocritical. You didn't mention that in your earlier post yourself.  If you don't want to call it cheating, what is it then when someone gets screwed out of a player when we're playing this game for money/credits?

I'll bite - I call it not being as good at the game as someone else (who also is playing for money/credits) -just because you didn't know how to (or were unwilling to risk) using boosters and corn did does not make it wrong for him to use boosters. They were available to you just as easily as they were to him. You really sound childish in your stance on this. I can agree to disagree, but I don't have to agree to disagree quietly. Your position has no basis in logic.


ETA: the calling out mentioned is the blatant violation of the well publicized new fair play guidelines. There is 0% chance you could convince any rational thinking person (or jury fwiw) that utilizing a built-in function of the game to one's advantage (and risk) to win a recruiting battle is anything like posting on a CC encouraging conference mates to battle someone you know to be weak because you are battling them already. If you cannot see that, there is no arguing with you, because you have refused to accept simple reality and there is no arguing with someone who is delusional.

8/1/2012 6:00 PM (edited)
Posted by umpikes on 8/1/2012 5:28:00 PM (view original):

Girtie and Corn are wrong...but we can agree to disagree. What bothered me was the fact that you called out someone Corn for something far less insidious that what you did...it's just hypocritical. You didn't mention that in your earlier post yourself.  If you don't want to call it cheating, what is it then when someone gets screwed out of a player when we're playing this game for money/credits?

umpikes - there's a disconnect in your logic, and - despite rereading and revising the statements below multiple times - i don't know if i can clearly articulate my thoughts. if someone else gets what i'm saying, maybe they can iron it out for me.

booster gifts: this was an option for EVERYONE to use. so, to say that using booster gifts was insidious because "someone gets screwed out of a player..." is really a bad description. in the case of booster gifts, both coaches had the same option available to them, and one deciding that the risk/reward was worth pursuing. the fact that the other coach didn't make that same "business decision" was the non-booster coach's choice. 

using battle information: when two coaches are in a battle for a player, both coaches gain (what should be) knowledge exclusive to each other about roughly how much the other coach is spending on that recruit. based on distance, conference success and open scholarships, the more talented coaches can have a pretty good estimate of how much that coach has spent from his budget and can then legitimately target the other coach's recruits, based on a risk/reward analysis (albeit a different one from the booster analysis). if a third coach is watching the battle and presumes that the two coaches are at war and probably spending all their hard earned recruiting dollars on the one stud recruit, the third coach might target one of the two battling coach's other recruits. the battling coach whose recruit is targeted gets, for lack of a better phrase 
"screwed out of a player". people may have differing views on the ethics of sniping (and i'm not arguing one way or the other about it), but this is completely within the terms of service and in neither of the examples above (battling coach targeting a second recruit of the second battling coach; or a third coach targeting a second recruit of one of the battling coaches) did anyone do anything violating the TOS or "insidious".

sharing battling information: when two coaches are in a battle for a player, both coaches gain (what should be) knowledge exclusive to each other about roughly how much the other coach is spending on that recruit. sharing that (exclusive) information - or even confirming it even if it easily presumable for the reasons stated above - is "cheating" or more appropriately, a violation of the TOS. similarly, and perhaps less offensive, if a coach is on the outside and presumes that two coaches are really giving each other hell and comments on it, it is "cheating" and a violation of the TOS because each coach is expected to come to his or her (really?) own analyses and/or conclusions about recruiting efforts, money spent and remaining, etc.

what distinguishes boosters from sharing is that the former was a tool available to everyone from the get go; the latter information, or confirmation of the information, was NOT available to anyone but the two coaches battling, or in the case of a third party sharing the info, putting everyone on notice about information that is the responsibility of any coach wanting it to discover for themselves.
8/1/2012 5:55 PM
Corn - used a recruiting action specifically allowed and endorsed by WIS

viper - made statements on the CC specifically prohibited by WIS

I don't really see how the two are in the same league.

If you want to make an argument that boosters were immoral, then I guess what you're saying has a basis, albeit one in which you seem to be alone in believing exists.

If you want to say that both are cheating within the terms of the game, well that's just flat out wrong.
8/1/2012 5:58 PM
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