if a M2M team has ten players in the rotation with 75 stamina and a pressing team has 12 with 80 stamina, I think that is a huge difference.  I'm over-simplifying, but that's 750 available stamina-points for the M2M team and 960 for the press team.

That's interesting info about Fouls Against.  I, too, wonder how much of that has to do with ATH/SP, that pressing teams tend to emphasize more than others.  I'll keep an eye on it.

Also, I think that players don't shoot nearly well enough on the "wide open" shots. Just as a guess, I'd say that my teams shoot about 5-10% better than normal on open shots, and 10-15% better than normal on open dunks.  Both of those seem just a mite too low.

I think if we saw more open shots go in, then that would be a positive.

(At the same time, I'm amazed out how many break-aways my pressing teams miss when they steal the ball in the back-court.)

 

I run M2M on almost all my teams and have had pretty high levels of success

In Wooden, where most teams have played 21 or 22 games, 8 of the top 12 Fouls Against teams are pressing teams. However, all of those teams pressing teams have played schedules heavy on the sims --  40% or more sims. In fact, all of the top 12 Fouls Against teams are a function of sim opponents, with the fewest percentage of sims played at about 30%.

Posted by dwoelflin07 on 8/7/2012 4:09:00 PM (view original):
Press IS the strongest defense. Doesn't mean you can't win Titles with other defenses.

the two most successful d2 programs in modern history (since the new engine), to my knowledge, both ran m2m. they both consistently dominated press teams all around them. given that there were more press teams, shouldnt the top programs most likely have been press teams, even if everything was balanced perfectly? so i don't see how press is the strongest defense (and its not, for the record, in d1). just because 70% of teams run press and 70% of the team in the NT are press teams, doesn't mean press is broken. that would just suggest press is perfectly balanced.

the reality is so much of d2/d3 stayed press from the old engine days where the press was "magic" so to speak, when 80% or even more of teams had been convinced it was impossible to win against all these damn press teams, unless you played press yourself. in d1, people switch because its so much more competitive. its very well possible that only 30 or 40% of d2/d3 teams "should" play press, but people are much less willing to switch sets when they are on a short term climb up the ladder. especially from a press defense which is obviously a competitive defense, and which almost all older users are comfortable with.

Posted by jbasnight on 8/8/2012 9:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by drsnell on 8/7/2012 4:22:00 PM (view original):
The success of most press teams is directly related to stamina.  The press teams tire themselves out more quickly than any other, but they also tire their opponents out more quickly as well. 

I feel like a lot of people who complain about the press don't pay enough attention to the stamina issue or try to combat it. 

You cannot just take a look at your opponents press team and say, "My team is more talented; I'm going uptempo." Not if you're redshirting a player and you have 11 guys with an average stamina of 73, and they're pressing you with 12 players at an average stamina of 80.  Your team will get tired.  And tired teams shoot worse, play worse D and foul more (which causes players to sit on the bench with foul trouble while their replacements play more minutes tired.)

The first thing you should look at when going against a pressing team is how many players are in their rotation and what is their stamina. If they're more likely to tire your team out than you are to tire them out, then you should probably slow it down. 

If a majority of teams you might go up against in the NT are press teams, then you should be building your team to combat that. Consider not redshirting. Don't set your players to "Getting Tired." Pay more attention to BH and PASS in Bigs than you think you should, and less attention to rebounding than you think you should. 

These adjustments will hurt you a little against M2M and Zone teams--and it hurts not to get that extra year with a redshirt guy--but will help against the press teams, and if the large majority of NT contenders are press teams then you should adjust to that in your recruiting.

Whatever other problems zone has now, it does a great job of negating the press's stamina-sucking advantage.  I'd still redshirt a guy every year if I had a zone team, but with M2M you often need that 12th body against a press.

Snell, this is a good point. The problem, in my opinion, is that the press team should need a big stamina edge for that to play out. Yes, a team being pressed should (and does) tire more quickly than they do against other opponents. But the team that's pressing should get a lot more tired, a lot more quickly, than their opponent. So if they don't have a big edge in stamina, they shouldn't be able to exploit it.

I have also noticed in the past few months that my teams foul a LOT more when facing the press, usually as much as 25% to 30% more than normal. My teams' seasons have rolled over, but I definitely noticed that the world leaders in fouls against were mostly teams running the FCP. Some of that ties back to stamina, but if you're pressing with 70-80 rated defenders, and you don't have an appreciable edge in ATH / SPD, your team should be fouling a lot more than your opponent, and giving up a lot of easy baskets. Right now it seems we've reverted to the days when mediocre teams could win games they had no business winning because the FCP gives them all the turnovers you would expect but little of the downside.

the dominant complaint about the press was always how dominant it was at the high end - you couldn't beat it for elite teams. the success of the press at the middle end was always over stated and press was often not even the best defense, but people just complained about it universally.

today, the problem has been rectified. the downside of the press, committing so many fouls and taking a heavy beating from the resulting fatigue issues, very much caps the press on the high end. i see no evidence whatsoever that press dominates man defense for top teams.

press does offer an advantage of being more likely to win upset games. but its also more likely to lose games it should win. if one has the mindset, press is still broken, its easy to focus on all the games press wins that it shouldn't, and its easy to miss all the games they lose, that they shouldn't. as an avid press player, i can tell you with certainty you get both to a greater extent than you do with the other defenses. and it seems very much balanced to me, although i am actually shying away from the belief it can be as competitive as man on the super high end, because of the inability to push moderate opponents to 98% style disadvantages, like you can in a super high end (at least average #1 in the nation type team) man defense team.

Posted by gillispie1 on 8/8/2012 2:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jbasnight on 8/8/2012 9:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by drsnell on 8/7/2012 4:22:00 PM (view original):
The success of most press teams is directly related to stamina.  The press teams tire themselves out more quickly than any other, but they also tire their opponents out more quickly as well. 

I feel like a lot of people who complain about the press don't pay enough attention to the stamina issue or try to combat it. 

You cannot just take a look at your opponents press team and say, "My team is more talented; I'm going uptempo." Not if you're redshirting a player and you have 11 guys with an average stamina of 73, and they're pressing you with 12 players at an average stamina of 80.  Your team will get tired.  And tired teams shoot worse, play worse D and foul more (which causes players to sit on the bench with foul trouble while their replacements play more minutes tired.)

The first thing you should look at when going against a pressing team is how many players are in their rotation and what is their stamina. If they're more likely to tire your team out than you are to tire them out, then you should probably slow it down. 

If a majority of teams you might go up against in the NT are press teams, then you should be building your team to combat that. Consider not redshirting. Don't set your players to "Getting Tired." Pay more attention to BH and PASS in Bigs than you think you should, and less attention to rebounding than you think you should. 

These adjustments will hurt you a little against M2M and Zone teams--and it hurts not to get that extra year with a redshirt guy--but will help against the press teams, and if the large majority of NT contenders are press teams then you should adjust to that in your recruiting.

Whatever other problems zone has now, it does a great job of negating the press's stamina-sucking advantage.  I'd still redshirt a guy every year if I had a zone team, but with M2M you often need that 12th body against a press.

Snell, this is a good point. The problem, in my opinion, is that the press team should need a big stamina edge for that to play out. Yes, a team being pressed should (and does) tire more quickly than they do against other opponents. But the team that's pressing should get a lot more tired, a lot more quickly, than their opponent. So if they don't have a big edge in stamina, they shouldn't be able to exploit it.

I have also noticed in the past few months that my teams foul a LOT more when facing the press, usually as much as 25% to 30% more than normal. My teams' seasons have rolled over, but I definitely noticed that the world leaders in fouls against were mostly teams running the FCP. Some of that ties back to stamina, but if you're pressing with 70-80 rated defenders, and you don't have an appreciable edge in ATH / SPD, your team should be fouling a lot more than your opponent, and giving up a lot of easy baskets. Right now it seems we've reverted to the days when mediocre teams could win games they had no business winning because the FCP gives them all the turnovers you would expect but little of the downside.

the dominant complaint about the press was always how dominant it was at the high end - you couldn't beat it for elite teams. the success of the press at the middle end was always over stated and press was often not even the best defense, but people just complained about it universally.

today, the problem has been rectified. the downside of the press, committing so many fouls and taking a heavy beating from the resulting fatigue issues, very much caps the press on the high end. i see no evidence whatsoever that press dominates man defense for top teams.

press does offer an advantage of being more likely to win upset games. but its also more likely to lose games it should win. if one has the mindset, press is still broken, its easy to focus on all the games press wins that it shouldn't, and its easy to miss all the games they lose, that they shouldn't. as an avid press player, i can tell you with certainty you get both to a greater extent than you do with the other defenses. and it seems very much balanced to me, although i am actually shying away from the belief it can be as competitive as man on the super high end, because of the inability to push moderate opponents to 98% style disadvantages, like you can in a super high end (at least average #1 in the nation type team) man defense team.

Something has changed with pressing teams recently. My zone teams have never matched my press opponents in fouls until recently. Like other coaches I don't even try to run uptempo against press teams because it feels my chances of winning decrease with the raise of the tempo. Take our game in Tark/D2 this afternoon, why did my zone team commit almost as many fouls as your press team running a - D and even a -4 in the 2nd half? Why is it that a 83BH 83 PA PG commits 5 TO's? It's not elite but in my opinion it is at the D2 level. Your team committed less fouls in the 2nd half than my zone running a -4. In the recent past I would have been living at the foul line that half. It just seems to me that the benefits of the different D's end up favoring the press... It's like playing rock paper scissors ... paper beats rock and rock is supposed to beat scissors but scissors ends up beating everyone the majority of the time.

Nothing beats rock.

Seriously, though, the more - you go the more fouls you commit.  -4 will always tend to make you commit more fouls than you think.  That's not a surprise.

What is a surprise is the number of coaches who STILL think that + = more fouls.  It has literally never been that way, it is explicitly stated in various places in the help that - creates more fouls, and I feel like any coaches with a season or 2 under their belts should know that, but a huge number get it backwards.  It really doesn't matter what intuitively seems like it should be right to you, - creates more fouls.

Posted by dahsdebater on 8/8/2012 3:12:00 PM (view original):
Seriously, though, the more - you go the more fouls you commit.  -4 will always tend to make you commit more fouls than you think.  That's not a surprise.

What is a surprise is the number of coaches who STILL think that + = more fouls.  It has literally never been that way, it is explicitly stated in various places in the help that - creates more fouls, and I feel like any coaches with a season or 2 under their belts should know that, but a huge number get it backwards.  It really doesn't matter what intuitively seems like it should be right to you, - creates more fouls.

I'm glad you said that because my team didn't go -4 in the 2nd half, billy g's team went -4 in the 2nd half running a press D and committed less fouls than my -2 / 3-2 zone.

how much better is billy's team?

I think overall billy's team is better in the cores but if we talk stamina and how a press vs. zone should work my team has the stamina advantage. Not by much but still.

fouls are not just a product of stamina...

That's true but we can agree you are more likely to foul if you're tired right? We can agree that press teams are supposed to foul more than any other D right? These are both statements you can find in the players guide. All I'm saying is regardless of what determines who commits a foul, recently I have noticed that my zone teams who are supposed to be on the lower end of the spectrum in fouls committed, commit as many or more fouls than press teams in certain junctures of the game. Now I will never argue the scoreboard. Whoever wins wins. But to me a zone team that is less negative than a press team should not foul more considering both teams are pretty close in talent and IQ. It seems that you can pretty much count on getting 15+ TO's running a press which ultimately leads to FBP. All a press team really has to do is win the boards and their chance of winning increases that much more. 

It seems to me that SIU at Drury game is a fine example of the issue.  Notwithstanding billyg's assertion that "all is well", here is a press team on the road running normal tempo against a zone team at home running normal tempo.  Both start the game at (-2) and both teams carry 11 scholarship athletes and a redshirt.  The team average defense ratings are equal and SIU enjoys a 2 point ATH advantage and a 1 point SPD advantage.

The initial difference?  You guessed it.  Taking out the redshirt on each team, Drury has an 80.1 average team stamina and plays zone, while  SIU boasts a 74.5 team average and plays press.   According to drsnell's math, that gives the zone team 881.1 stamina points to the pressing team's 819.5.   You might, therefore, guess that the pressing team playing (-4) during the second half and, to the sims credit showing some signs of fatigue in the pbp, would foul more than a 3-2 zone still playing at (-2).  Again, nope.   Omitting the end of game period (where Drury, losing, is bound to foul more), from the start of the 2nd half to the 4:55 mark Drury commits 8 fouls to SIU's 7.  

IMHO, billyg probably had the better game plan (and it could have been even better by simply playing slowdown), but it is baffling that fatigue appeared to play no part whatsoever in this game.  So SIU got a 10 turnover advantage without any concomitant cost in the form of fatigue leading to more fouls.  

Obviously...nothing to see here.

Aside from the GP comment I agree with everything that was said here. Why my players didn't shoot more 3 pts even though I had guys set to 0 and +1 is beyond me especially with both teams running normal tempos. I honest believe this game would still be an L had I run slow down because I still would have committed the fouls and the TO's. I'd probably have lost by 8.