Hi all, my question is this: At what prestige (D1 level) is it feasible to battle the higher prestige teams, let's say B+  on up?

The scenario would be something like this: You have a B- prestige and you are 10 miles from a 3 star recruit. You have 4 open schollies so you have let's say close to 70K after post season cash is added. 

If all B+ on up schools are at least 200 miles away, and you plan on taking a few walk-ons, how would you fare in signing this recruit considering you have to battle a B+ (200mi), then an A- at 600 miles and an A at 900 miles? 

A huge factor is going to be the money those other schools have, if those A schools are in a power conference and you are not then they probably have way more money than you do so the battle is going to be even tougher.

At B- you can win a battle vs those schools, it just takes the effort to do it, the distance advantage will help, but money will be the biggest factor.

Should be noted I've never played at a high level D1, but based on all I've seen

B- v. B+ you are looking something like 1.4-1.6x multiplier, meaning you have to put in 40-60% more effort just to match the B+ effort. For A- v. B-, you will be facing something close to 1.7-1.8ish. Those are pretty big multipliers to overcome so unless you have a major cash advantage or think your opponent isn't going to put in serious cash, your chance of winning is minimal. 

Another note. 10miles v 360miles, not a big difference. It's only after 360 that cost jumps by a big amount so in your scenario of 10 miles at B- v. 200miles at B+, the B+ 200 miles have a huge edge assuming cash is equal. 

As mjp noted, biggest thing to take not off is post season cash. Power conf will bring in 40-60k cash for each team, while nonbcs would be lucky to bring in 10k. This different is huge. And remember, D3/D2 cash for postseason is 3k/6k per game, so equivalent to 1 scholarship. For D1, its 20k per game, or 133% of 1 scholarship. The effect of postseason cash plays a bigger role than d2/d3. 

As I have said before when we played in Big Sky, your success is not just dependent on how you do in D1, it's actually largely determined by how your conf does. You need alot of your conf mates to make the NT and a few to go deep in order for you to consistently bring in high quality talent. You have to have your conf mates do well so you can overcome the cash issue. This is the reason I was sharing alot of my recruiting formulas, my weighting for attributes, and the best way to schedule when I was playing in the Big Sky. You can have A+ prestige in a non-bcs conf, but if your conf is not bringing in serious postseason cash, you won't land any good players above 3 stars. 

Alright. We have a few guys who are coming along. If one or two more step up then it could probably end up being this engines best Big Sky conference.

Mchristman at Princeton learned first hand the importance of postseason cash this season. I believe he jumped out on a 7 WE 5 star player rated in the 700s and a 4 star player, got into battles early, and then got jumped by low end BCS teams with worse prestige at the final cycle. 

And to answer your question directly, it's possible to sign a 3-4 star with B- against B+, but you have to do it selectively against coaches that overstretched their budget. 

Simply piling on cash with the idea of taking on 3 walkons won't be enough, because most, if not all B+ teams are in BCS conf. With prestige + postseason cash, tehir budget is effectively 100-150% bigger than yours (effective in the sensn of money * prestige)

So in short, don't jump on any 4 -5 star guys because you feel you have a distance advantage. Let the big boys pick first and then go get the scraps.

Well if all goes according to plan (and I don't get hit with yet another EE), here's one less B+ program you won't have to worry about this recruiting season.  But be careful for the next one as I'll be stocked to the teeth for the following one with double post season cash .

prestige advantage is being overstated IMO. B- to B+ is roughly equal to the 10 to 250 mile difference. B- to A is roughly equal to the 10 to 400 mile difference. distance advantage really does matter, and it really does equalize prestige to a significant degree. now, you can't underestimate that big 6 money if you don't have it... and you have to look at the circumstances, who are the teams you are worried about, what do they need, who are they after, who are they battling... to know if you should press your luck on a recruit. but it can be done. if i had, for example, b- prestige colorado, and there were local recruits, and no local big boys, i would consider it insanity NOT to jump on that 4 or 5 star rec recruit that was next door.

now, you are in portland, im not sure the same situation can apply. but if the case is really what you suggest, B+ is over 200, no A- or better within 360, then you might push your luck. theres a major difference between colorado and portland and that is of course big 6 money... which is probably a good 20-30K advantage. you should obviously be calculating that every season. anyway, big schools do often care about walkons to some degree, you can half way neutralize that 20-30k by floating 2 walkons every season. you really just have to be creative, and know that you are never sure to win a top player. but that doesn't mean you don't play.

the mileage is not really accurate and I'm not exactly sure what the mileage really is but right now I have a C+ program which will hopefully become a B- at the conclusion of this season. As opposed to last season in the northwest/west at least were the recruit generation was dreadful, the recruit generation this season looks very healthy with a plethera of 3,4 and 5 star guys. I'm just hoping my chances are good at snatching one considering the abundance. WSU, WU and Oregon pretty much have their way in this area, but i know Oregon will have 6 open spots this year. Buddhagamer at WSU shouldn't have any open schollies unless those dreaded EE's rear their ugly heads, and WU I don't even really stand a chance against unless I have a major prestige boost. I just want to be able to compete seeing that Phelan seems to have filled up almost all of its Big 6 coaching spots. I'm pretty much stuck at PSU unless someone gets fired or some of the standards drop for the schools that are left.

Posted by coach_billyg on 8/21/2012 12:52:00 PM (view original):
prestige advantage is being overstated IMO. B- to B+ is roughly equal to the 10 to 250 mile difference. B- to A is roughly equal to the 10 to 400 mile difference. distance advantage really does matter, and it really does equalize prestige to a significant degree. now, you can't underestimate that big 6 money if you don't have it... and you have to look at the circumstances, who are the teams you are worried about, what do they need, who are they after, who are they battling... to know if you should press your luck on a recruit. but it can be done. if i had, for example, b- prestige colorado, and there were local recruits, and no local big boys, i would consider it insanity NOT to jump on that 4 or 5 star rec recruit that was next door.

now, you are in portland, im not sure the same situation can apply. but if the case is really what you suggest, B+ is over 200, no A- or better within 360, then you might push your luck. theres a major difference between colorado and portland and that is of course big 6 money... which is probably a good 20-30K advantage. you should obviously be calculating that every season. anyway, big schools do often care about walkons to some degree, you can half way neutralize that 20-30k by floating 2 walkons every season. you really just have to be creative, and know that you are never sure to win a top player. but that doesn't mean you don't play.

It's all relative when it comes to 4/5 stars. I know utvol at South Carolina dropped his entire budget on a 5 star 10 miles away, with either 3 or 4 slots, and lost the battle convincingly a few seasons ago. Meanwhile, LSU signed a 5 star uncontested without getting "very tight," and it was a legitimate 5 star sf. At the same time, ACC teams + PAC 10 team battled Utah in Utah for a 5 star recruit. 

Every case varies for sure. But for a conf with playoff cash less than 8k, I think it would be nuts for a B- to jump out onto a 5 star right away. It just screams "poach me."

And I think I might even be underrepping prestige in my range. One of the recent battles I remember had my opponent dropping 85% more cash on the recruit, with him having a distance advantage (he was within 250, I was outside 360), so overall effort was greater than 85%. I ended up winning the battle with B- against his C-. I would say that your range of 10 to 400 miles for B- to A is undervaluing prestige by a big margin. 

i agree with the premise that him jumping on a 5 star right away is crazy. but if there are a lot of 4-5 stars, and say for example there are a bunch of bigs, i dont see why he cant start out by going for that 3 star recruit he asked about. i also dont think its out of question that he could sign a higher end player too, but i agree he shouldnt start them, just watch for any opportunity.

Posted by rednation58 on 8/20/2012 8:13:00 PM (view original):
Alright. We have a few guys who are coming along. If one or two more step up then it could probably end up being this engines best Big Sky conference.

Not even remotely close to being the best Big Sky. Maybe currently, but not ever.

Posted by indiansrck27 on 8/22/2012 2:02:00 AM (view original):

Posted by rednation58 on 8/20/2012 8:13:00 PM (view original):
Alright. We have a few guys who are coming along. If one or two more step up then it could probably end up being this engines best Big Sky conference.

Not even remotely close to being the best Big Sky. Maybe currently, but not ever.

Where in my post did I say we had the best Big Sky ever? What I said was if one or two more guys step up, it "could" end up being "this engines" best Big Sky. This engine being the most current running engine so I gather with your maybe currently statement we are actually in agreement.

 

 

I think that if EVERYBODY stays this Big Sky has the protential to being the best Big Sky Conference every.  Were just in our 2nd season with 10 coaches and the talent level is getting better.  This year we're looking at 3 to maybe 4 teams in the NT and within a few seasons I can actually see 6 to 8 teams easliy.  That depends on the current coaches staying and getting better talent in the conference.  This recruiting season will be big on that because 5 schools have 5 to 6 players leaving for each school.

I also feel that right now we are the best Big Sky ever and I'll say that becuase when Phelan first started and all the coaches were here the Big 6 schools were all sims for one.  Second it was the second engine where you can take players from sims with no problem so you had the best coaches and the best recruits in the big sky.  You cant do that now.  So actually its harder now to get players, game play and coaches to stay and to be honest all those coaches that were in the big sky only a few are now even in Big 6 schools or playing.  I feel what we are doing right now with protential and prestige its harder because all the big 6 schools are taken now and it's harder to get talent and keep good coaches.  Just my opinion.