Posted by reddyred on 8/13/2012 7:31:00 PM (view original):
Understandable. But I have to wonder if this study you're encouraging is just some wild goose chase if I use your logic. 

well from my research and experience from playing against the press, I have noticed that loading distro on your stud guys that are less likely to turn the ball over is a good start. But it just really seems like your players have to be strong in certain areas (ie. BH, PA, SPD) to take advantage of the press. I'll add good FT shooting as well. I would also add that any other category like IQ, Stamina, ATH would help in combatting the press as they would against any other D. Assuming that you'd let me know if I'm luke warm or cold here, I would still end at the same conclusion that you need the players to beat the press. But in my spare time I will look deeper into Press vs. Press teams to find some common theme there.

Posted by reddyred on 8/13/2012 7:56:00 PM (view original):

well from my research and experience from playing against the press, I have noticed that loading distro on your stud guys that are less likely to turn the ball over is a good start. But it just really seems like your players have to be strong in certain areas (ie. BH, PA, SPD) to take advantage of the press. I'll add good FT shooting as well. I would also add that any other category like IQ, Stamina, ATH would help in combatting the press as they would against any other D. Assuming that you'd let me know if I'm luke warm or cold here, I would still end at the same conclusion that you need the players to beat the press. But in my spare time I will look deeper into Press vs. Press teams to find some common theme there.

Posted by reddyred on 8/13/2012 7:31:00 PM (view original):
Understandable. But I have to wonder if this study you're encouraging is just some wild goose chase if I use your logic. 

Posted by tianyi7886 on 8/13/2012 7:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by reddyred on 8/13/2012 7:19:00 PM (view original):
Could you save us some time as I have never run a press team and honestly just don't have the desire ?

I run 2x D3 fcp teams (one of them in tark and face narcotico quite often) while my other team in the E8 in Naismith NT. I don't quite see the point of telling my opposition the best way to beat me. 

Posted by jbasnight on 9/3/2012 9:36:00 AM (view original):
Thanks reddy. But what gil is saying in this thread--that press teams commit more fouls--is different than what I'm noticing: Press teams' opponents seem to commit a lot more fouls. When I am playing a pressing team, my own team commits a lot more fouls than it does against teams playing other defenses. And looking at the world stats for "fouls against," I'm not the only one.

To clarify further: I'm not talking about the fouls the press team commits, but the fouls their opponents commit.

Posted by uconnut on 9/3/2012 9:40:00 AM (view original):

Posted by jbasnight on 9/3/2012 9:36:00 AM (view original):
Thanks reddy. But what gil is saying in this thread--that press teams commit more fouls--is different than what I'm noticing: Press teams' opponents seem to commit a lot more fouls. When I am playing a pressing team, my own team commits a lot more fouls than it does against teams playing other defenses. And looking at the world stats for "fouls against," I'm not the only one.

To clarify further: I'm not talking about the fouls the press team commits, but the fouls their opponents commit.

as i asked, how many of those teams also play fast break? fast break brings a lot of free throws even when paired with something other than press.

Posted by gillispie1 on 8/13/2012 4:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by reddyred on 8/13/2012 3:08:00 PM (view original):
Again billy thanks for the in depth analysis. If fatigue is not the major flaw of the press, what is the major flaw? We know mTm can be exploited with different matchups, zone can be attacked in different ways depending on the type of zone, but what is a weakness of the press that maybe the other two defenses aren't as vulnerable? Just from seeing that press is less effective in d1 shows the major press buster are the players themselves. Since when did uptempo not affect opponent fatigue? Was this just another case of forum myth? I've always went on the notion that uptempo fatigued your players as well as the other teams players. I also do believe the engine is not as complicated as we sometimes make it out to be, but I think it's obvious the successful coaches operate with certain fundamentals which increase the chance for victory. Are there any of these fundamentals we are missing to crack the press?

well, these are not really short and sweet answers, but ill do my best.

first off, seble changed the game a while back and said, uptempo and slowdown will no longer affect the fatigue of your opponent (it does affect your own fatigue). that was his intention and he came close. i don't think its 100%, in a vacuum true, but i do think seble made it generally true.

again, in d1 press being less effective is so largely due to the inability to plan ahead and ensure depth. also, in d1, you really need constant success at most programs to maintain your level - you arent looking for boom and bust cycles, generally speaking. with top end programs getting eaten by early entries, and lower end programs having few top players (if any), resulting in sharp talent disparities - press just doesn't make that much sense. higher end d1 teams are so often young, and lower end teams cant afford to have their best players at 22mpg. so its not the players, but those realities about d1, that makes press a notch below man.

zone is strong when you have a sharp talent gap and need to get the most minutes to your top players. but with a well crafted, deep and talented team, zone is almost always going to be your worst offense. im not talking huge margins, fussyd had a run with zone in d2 that was one of the best runs ever. but for most of the people really trying to build great teams, that tend to be deep and talented, they will notice that zone holds you back a bit. and even though zone is the best offense in some situations, its the people who are really building the great teams who evaluate these things, and that is where zone is at its worst (IMO at least). i dont think inherently, zone is unbalanced with the rest of the game. it is a very very strong defense in plenty of situations and it is viable to win championships with, i think it is pretty well situated, honestly.

man defense, sure, you can be exploited with matchups, or you can exploit with matchups. i like to play man and play against man, because i feel i usually come out ahead in both, as most people do not change their lineup at all. but on my man teams, i certainly don't consider it a weakness, that a defender can be exploited. you can hide him better than you can in zone, or he can be exploited more than in zone, just depends on the setup of the two teams. one reason man defense makes a lot of sense in high d1 is you can have so many great defenders, i really think man has to get the nod as the best high end d1 defense right now. but in any division, it offers the ability to hold the opponent to the lowest fg% and 3pt%, and is solid outside that, so it is a very viable defense everywhere, IMO.

press defense, like the other defenses, doesn't have a "major flaw". it has a very serious weakness in that fouls and fatigue (in tandem, the press fatigue is a small very tolerable hit unless foul trouble comes into play in a serious way, assuming decent depth) can really bite you. you have to realize, a zone vs man team, its not like equally talented and well build, at the high end, man is winning 80%. it might win 55%, and almost definitely not more than 60%. so for press to drop 5 and maybe even closer to 10% of games by default just because you are going to foul a **** ton, thats a pretty big disadvantage! of course, it forces the turnovers and that gives you a boost in the rest of games. for evenly matched teams, i think the benefits basically outweigh the negatives, and press is press much balanced. at the high end, the volatility is really a problem, as high end play is usually more about pushing opponents to 90%, more than getting from a 50% to 55% favorite against another equally high end teams. press, with the inherent expectation of losing a higher % of games against significantly inferior opponents, is possibly a notch below man for the really high end of competition.

there are a ton of other features to the offenses, like the impact on rebouding (advantage: man), etc... but that is generally my overall analysis. so ive mentioned for all defenses, how they play out in d1. for championship play, i think man has a notable advantage, and in generally, i think the pecking order for d1 (not just high end) is man > zone > press. press is actually fine for a certain style of d1 play, but IMO that is the style where you are going to a few straight low end NT appearances to jump. for a program being turned into a dynasty, i think press is least appropriate.

in d2, i think things are fairly well in balance. zone defense again is 3rd for top 5-10 teams, IMO, and man and press are pretty tightly balanced for higher end teams. press might start to edge out on low mid-low end, in fact i bet it does. these are the main trends from division 1 down to 3:
1) d1 teams on the highest end have the least control over their composition and the biggest trouble maintaining depth. early entries are a big part of this, but as you go down the chain from d1 to d3, the variation in recruits and the level of competition for recruits are both big factors, too.
2) d1 teams have the biggest ability to guarantee strong defense across the board. high end d1 teams can do this trivially, lower d1 teams might struggle some, high end d2 teams can do pretty well (not as good as high end d1 teams), and then its harder on low end d2, easier (but harder than d2) in high d3, and finally, hardest in lower end d3 play. that is the general trend.

these factors have a major impact on the relative usefulness of the defenses. as you go down, to d2 and d3, man defense sags some because of the inability to guarantee great defenders - although a smart coach can easily manage this, and in fact, it can be an advantage if you are changing lineups against opponents who aren't. so to me, this basically leaves man just as viable, but given than maybe 90% of coaches dont touch their lineups, it makes man worse as you go down. this does not really mean man is out of balance, because when you play it right, its strong. and you have to keep things balanced around championship level play more so than elsewhere, because thats where the margins really count.

in higher end play in lower divisions, i think zone gets a bump in a sense, because the difference in the stars to medium players on high end teams is quite significant. in high end d1, the team is so good, the margins are lower. so just like in lower d1, where you have a few stars significantly better, and want them to carry the load, zone makes sense. in d2/d3 in general really, its true that zone is pretty appropriate, for that reason. but those years in d2/d3 when you have the old teams, you have the talented guys at each position, and you are a top 10-15 team, usually the benfit of zone taking advantage of your top few players is outweighed by the inherent negatives of zone, which are that it is worse than press/man in terms of rebounding, fg defense, 3pt defense, and turnovers (not worse than both on all 4, but still).

the press makes more and more sense in lower divisions, at the high end, because you have the depth and the experience on the team. also, you have things like press forces a lot of turnovers. in d3, fg% is higher than d2, which is higher than d1. so turnovers are going to make a bigger impact in lower divisional play than higher divisional play (to some extent, im not talking huge margins, not in any of this post). 

so basically, in high end play, as you go from d1 to d2 to d3, you are more and more able to guarantee depth, which leans press. you are less and less able to guarantee strong defenders in man, which makes man less attractive along the way, *for the majority of coaches who don't mess with lineup*. and zone is a bit out of place for the same depth reason. so for the highest level of play, i think press steadily makes its way from the worst defense to the best (tied for the best at least). i don't think this makes press unbalanced, it just means in d3 and d2 more teams will play press at the high end, and less will in d1. i dont think the strength of the press in d2/d3 high end is unbalanced with the weakness of it in d1.

in medium play in the divisions, i think any of the defenses are viable and what you do with them dramatically outweighs any strengths and weaknesses. the same is true in high end play, but as people do more and more right, small margins of advantage matter more and more - as the overall advantages are lessened. so the difference in the defenses at the high end is really what matters i think, and its well balanced there. in middle play, i really don't think any defense has what would be considered a significant advantage, so even though one defense might be "best", its far from out of whack.

however, if i had to pick a best defense for most d2/d3 teams, i would probably guess press. this is because the middle play d2/d3 teams rarely change lineups, and have worse defenders sprinkled in, so man is just a notch lower. correct play would correct thing, but regardless... and these teams generally have decent depth, so press is situated just fine. so is zone, but i could see how it very well may be true that press is the best defense for most teams, albeit by a very small margin. but because its slight, and high end play is balanced, with high end d1 significantly favoring not-press, i find the defenses to be pretty well balanced. and really, at the very very highest end of play, like at least the average #1 team in a country, i actually feel man might be king, because of the 5-10% of foul trouble games with press you have, that you don't need to contend with, with man defense.